**UPDATED 3** Recent examples of a collapsing club scene:

[Guest pod]

Always personal bias.

[Guest spinderella7713]

The artists and agents killed the house scene. End of story!

It's simple economics. When the talent charges more, the venue has to charge more. The mega-clubs can pay more because they can hold more people so they get the big names. The mega-clubs compete for the big name so the price goes up. BUT...the price is now so high that with promotion and everything else, they are only breaking even because even Mansion's crowd thinks $100 cover is too much. It's too late for the price to come back down because the talent wants to keep making the big bucks. Now the smaller clubs can only hire the talent with the not-so-big name. This should be OK since there is plenty of great up-and-coming talent out there. BUT....the people, (yes, that's you), are only willing to pay for the big names so the small club is shit-out-of-luck unless they want the free-loaders. So the real music heads, (who really don't support much unless it's free), are on message boards calling the mega-clubs evil names like Wal-Mart. Meanwhile, only a handful of people care because radio and MTV are only cultivating Hip-Hop lovers. Now the clubs realize that it's cheaper and easier to fill their clubs with Hip-Hoppers and it's Bye-Bye dance.

True as well. Seriously, did people acutally pay $100 for Mansion? Was it a full crowd? It was $100 for everybody? Its just nutz to me. Im gonna go see Bill Cosby at the pac for $55!!!! Now that is a show damn it!

[Guest JustDade]

I also love the holier-than-thou people who are, in fact, nothing but hypocrites. How many times have you heard the "true music head" complain about the cult of celebrity in clubs? But they are as guilty as anyone of contributing to it. They're first in line to see Deep Dish but always too busy to support the super-talented, no-name. Is Tiesto really better than other DJs? Is Morillo worth what he charges? Why are these shows sold out every time they are in town?

Simple....HYPE trumps quality every time in the real world. If quality was what really mattered Stryke would be making a fortune.

[Guest ramon]

And even worse, when a dance artist or DJ does something like go on Y100 or on the satellites, he or she automatically branded a sell-out. Richie Hawtin could get a prime-time dance music TV show on NBC and I can bet some of his fans would label him as a sell out.

And then on the same tack, "supporters" of dance music don't go out to see DJs because "they're too commercial" or "Oh I heard him in Ibiza and he gets way more daring there...". They'd rather stay at home, cruise the P2P networks or The Pirate Bay, and listen to sets coming out of their $20 Wal-Mart computer speakers. "I support" they say, then 20 minutes later they're IMing their friend, whom OG gave some tracks in good faith to play out, for the latest tracks from Europe.

And Natalie, most people don't give a flying fuck if Loco Dice was there or not. To your average, paying clubgoer here in Miami, Loco Dice is Oscar G is Cedric Gervais is Edgar V. People going out in this town don't care, and most importantly, don't want to care too much about which DJ is on the decks.

I was having a discussion with Dade about this once, he bought down a plethora of DJs, some of whom now command mid-five-figure salaries, and some whom have dropped off the radar entirely. Now was everyone a trainspotter back then? Not bloody likely, to quote the English. What it was was that through the residents, the quality of the venue, and the promotions staff, he had built a trust with his crowd. They wouldn't swarm for the names, it was more of a "Well, it could be anyone on the decks, but we know Shadow Lounge is going to provide an entertaining evening for us..."

That's always been the key in this city, is to provide a certain night for a crowd, and build a trust. And most importantly, don't abuse that trust. Space "works" because people know they can hear quality, accessible dance music, in a great venue with an overall decent crowd. They know they'll go out and have a good time regardless of whether Deep Dish, OG, PvD, or Cedric is playing. They know what to expect, in other words. Throw in the "strange" sounds of Loco Dice, and yeah, they're gonna be pissed. Loco as an example. I don't follow him so I don't know what he plays really.

Your average clubgoer pays good money to go out. Now I know you are all immortals and that concept is kinda hard to grasp, but it does happen. Not everyone's as important as you and is a scenester. But anyway, for that money, they want to know ahead of time that they are going to have a good night out. They want no unpleasant surprises. Surprises are nice, but they need to go in the right direction.

Richie Hawtin's music was on NBC during the olympics. The strange sounds of Loco Dice weren't a problem at Crobar when he used to open for Timo Maas, but now he's "cool and trendy" so the music he plays is "wierd?" wtf. So only the music that's accessible for everyone is allowed to succeed here in miami? What happened to pushing the envelope? What happened to trying to maybe have a few people wonder about other kinds of music. So it's cool that Nic (i use him as example) can play a huge "minimal" record and maybe a few "techno" records, but you can't have maybe a local or maybe an export play some of the same records. Case in point we had a dj here who played 'Rej' before it became the antem it is today , but he was considered wierd.

It would be nice to have a night like aquabooty in other forms of music , their crowd goes out to their party they trust the promoters in bringing in dj's that cater to their crowd. However that takes much time and energy and we really don't have a venue to cater to this which is very unfortunate. Everyone want's results yesterday. The next time someone gets a bright idea to open up a huge club here cut it in half and make 2 rooms and give some other under appreciated forms of dance music a shot as well. You can coexist.

[Guest pod]

You know what I mean. I used Loco just as a filler name.

People want results yesterday because things like the rent, people's salaries, and so forth aren't something you can't wait on to pay.

One thing I've noticed, the bulk of the complainers haven't really worked a day in the club industry in their lives. They have the luxury of only seeing the end product, not the hours and days of effort it takes to produce one party. They think it's just a matter of dropping a DJ in, pressing 'go' and then off it goes.

[V. Barbarino]

I think our generation* of club heads spent so much time promoting to people their own age and people older......and not enough time making the newbees feel welcomed into club land. Therefore newbies dont have the memories that most of us thrive upon (or knowledge) to go out everyweekend...or at least support EDM. There is a gap in generations. Promotions ultimatly were not directed to the right people a few years back....this is my take on things at least.

there are not many options other than festivals and a few other events for people under 21 to get into the music. sure they can download dj sets and what not, but it's not the same. instead this crowd is listening to indie rock/electronic and swearing its not dance music. you have kids listening to daft punk who swear its not house music. regardless of the matter you won't have much of a scene here unless people realize that we need to brng in the next generation of producers / dj's and give them a place to flourish.

ps: barbarino, i still listen to techno , but there's more important things to worry about than not seeing my favorite dj's in town. however wmc is 3 months away and for one week in march miami is transformed into a magical musical mecca.

Dude, admit you dumped techno for fantasy football.

[Guest Tru1]

I would chime in but Pod and Dade pretty much said what needed to be said.

[Guest aj2234]

I also love the holier-than-thou people who are, in fact, nothing but hypocrites. How many times have you heard the "true music head" complain about the cult of celebrity in clubs? But they are as guilty as anyone of contributing to it. They're first in line to see Deep Dish but always too busy to support the super-talented, no-name. Is Tiesto really better than other DJs? Is Morillo worth what he charges? Why are these shows sold out every time they are in town?

Simple....HYPE trumps quality every time in the real world. If quality was what really mattered Stryke would be making a fortune.

+100000

[Guest JustDade]

Richie Hawtin's music was on NBC during the olympics. The strange sounds of Loco Dice weren't a problem at Crobar when he used to open for Timo Maas, but now he's "cool and trendy" so the music he plays is "wierd?" wtf. So only the music that's accessible for everyone is allowed to succeed here in miami? What happened to pushing the envelope? What happened to trying to maybe have a few people wonder about other kinds of music. So it's cool that Nic (i use him as example) can play a huge "minimal" record and maybe a few "techno" records, but you can't have maybe a local or maybe an export play some of the same records. Case in point we had a dj here who played 'Rej' before it became the antem it is today , but he was considered wierd.

It would be nice to have a night like aquabooty in other forms of music , their crowd goes out to their party they trust the promoters in bringing in dj's that cater to their crowd. However that takes much time and energy and we really don't have a venue to cater to this which is very unfortunate. Everyone want's results yesterday. The next time someone gets a bright idea to open up a huge club here cut it in half and make 2 rooms and give some other under appreciated forms of dance music a shot as well. You can coexist.

Ramon, you're a dreamer, my friend!

Let me get this straight.....They should open a club, pay the rent, pay the salaries, pay the taxes........and then use it to try to expose cool underground sounds? Remind me never to hire you as my business manager.

BTW - That's not what clubs are for. Clubs are for people to go out to and have fun. Why do you feel that clubs have some sort of obligation to "push the envelope?" They are businesses and as such are supposed to be based on sound business principles like selling something that people want. If people were clammoring for underground beats, there would be 50 clubs playing underground beats. I'm sorry to tell you that you're not the best example of a mainstream clubber.

Now some would say that maybe a niche club for those who want that sound would work. Of course the owners of Nerve, Privelege, Shine, and the host of other venues who lost their asses by being all about the music may disagree. If you're into underground, new sounds these days there's a place for you...it's called your buddy's garage.

[Guest lavosdeldiablo]

Ramon, you're a dreamer, my friend!

Let me get this straight.....They should open a club, pay the rent, pay the salaries, pay the taxes........and then use it to try to expose cool underground sounds? Remind me never to hire you as my business manager.

BTW - That's not what clubs are for. Clubs are for people to go out to and have fun. Why do you feel that clubs have some sort of obligation to "push the envelope?" They are businesses and as such are supposed to be based on sound business principles like selling something that people want. If people were clammoring for underground beats, there would be 50 clubs playing underground beats. I'm sorry to tell you that you're not the best example of a mainstream clubber.

Now some would say that maybe a niche club for those who want that sound would work. Of course the owners of Nerve, Privelege, Shine, and the host of other venues who lost their asses by being all about the music may disagree. If you're into underground, new sounds these days there's a place for you...it's called your buddy's garage.

unfortunately your right .

what i want to know is who IS 'pushing the envelope'? aside from Aquabooty, Lust and a FEW others (which represents a fraction of the local scene). we have a thousand DJ's in this town . how many SUCCESSFUL promoters do we have ? and i dont mean promoters that work for a mega club because they ARE expendable. who is pushing house, techno, etc ???

[Bling]

"Bling has turned his back on: Glass, Grass, Blue, that Laundry Mat, Space, deep house, trance, techno, dating, females"

1. Bling turned back on Glass

Aquabooty not at Glass anymore = i wont be going there anymore

2. Grass= never been there

3. Blue= Was just there for NYE (though yes i dont go to blue much anymore)

4. Laundry Bar = look for two review/ pic threads for this fri for sneak and the week after for jojo from laundry bar

5. Space= im retired from afterhours and space for most part. not my cup of tea

6. deep house- same as always listen to it each day on my mp3 player. and when i go out (though not naearly as much)

7. techno- never been into techno... ever ( ben watt would be the closest and hes not even really techno. hes house borderline techno)

8. dating and females... please refer to above.. not goin out as much but im still going out with females on dates. just no one serious yet. (dinners .. movies etc.... ) this > than any nite out on the town to a club... unless i take them to an AB party or something

8)

Nick looks like you still got a lot of free time at work to think of all this up.

granted i post a lot at work as well but your little speech seems like it took some time to think up

[Guest pod]

No one, because there's no market in that sort of thing. Promoters in this town want to make money promoting. The only independent promoters promote celeb parties.

[Guest vaughan]

They are businesses and as such are supposed to be based on sound business principles like selling something that people want.

Weird... there it is... and people usually pay a lot of money to "consultants" for that gem!

[Guest aj2234]

the main problem with electronic music is the seperation of the crowds due to the different genres.

the house heads hate trance

the trance heads hate techno

the techno heads hate breaks

the breaks heads hate drum and bass

and so on and so on.

in the early 90's if you liked electronic music , you were excited to hear new sounds. now the "scene" is so fragmented due to all these silly subgenres that its hard to get the crowds needed to support the music.

[Guest pod]

That's what I said earlier. Too many people are too picky as to what events they'll go to. I'll be at a house, trance, even a rock n roll event. Grant it, I go out to have fun, but most people seem to have forgotten how to do that.

[Guest ramon]

Richie Hawtin's music was on NBC during the olympics. The strange sounds of Loco Dice weren't a problem at Crobar when he used to open for Timo Maas, but now he's "cool and trendy" so the music he plays is "wierd?" wtf. So only the music that's accessible for everyone is allowed to succeed here in miami? What happened to pushing the envelope? What happened to trying to maybe have a few people wonder about other kinds of music. So it's cool that Nic (i use him as example) can play a huge "minimal" record and maybe a few "techno" records, but you can't have maybe a local or maybe an export play some of the same records. Case in point we had a dj here who played 'Rej' before it became the antem it is today , but he was considered wierd.

It would be nice to have a night like aquabooty in other forms of music , their crowd goes out to their party they trust the promoters in bringing in dj's that cater to their crowd. However that takes much time and energy and we really don't have a venue to cater to this which is very unfortunate. Everyone want's results yesterday. The next time someone gets a bright idea to open up a huge club here cut it in half and make 2 rooms and give some other under appreciated forms of dance music a shot as well. You can coexist.

Ramon, you're a dreamer, my friend!

Let me get this straight.....They should open a club, pay the rent, pay the salaries, pay the taxes........and then use it to try to expose cool underground sounds? Remind me never to hire you as my business manager.

BTW - That's not what clubs are for. Clubs are for people to go out to and have fun. Why do you feel that clubs have some sort of obligation to "push the envelope?" They are businesses and as such are supposed to be based on sound business principles like selling something that people want. If people were clammoring for underground beats, there would be 50 clubs playing underground beats. I'm sorry to tell you that you're not the best example of a mainstream clubber.

Now some would say that maybe a niche club for those who want that sound would work. Of course the owners of Nerve, Privelege, Shine, and the host of other venues who lost their asses by being all about the music may disagree. If you're into underground, new sounds these days there's a place for you...it's called your buddy's garage.

I'm talking more along the lines of Arc play whatever you want in the front room and play some other stuff in the back.

Rain was house in the front and oldschool hip hop in the back. Bedrock was the same with wierder sounds being played in the back room.

People will never clammor for underground beats if they don't even know they are around. What's popular is what get's exposure and even sometimes that doesn't mean shit here. Miami is its own planet and shows regardless of what's going in the rest of the world they will be stuck in their ways.

Look a dream of mine would be to see something like Cielo here, but with the attitudes of people it's never going to happen. Privilege was something that I will truly cherish because I got to live it. People are never satisfied in this town and its quite sad because we had it good. It comes down to numbers and we just don't have it. It's sad to say but it's true.

Tenaglia is playing friday so I'll get my underground fix then.

[Guest Seb]

the main problem with electronic music is the seperation of the crowds due to the different genres.

the house heads hate trance

the trance heads hate techno

the techno heads hate breaks

the breaks heads hate drum and bass

and so on and so on.

in the early 90's if you liked electronic music , you were excited to hear new sounds. now the "scene" is so fragmented due to all these silly subgenres that its hard to get the crowds needed to support the music.

another good point, everyone is way to segmented and narrow minded about the music they'll listen to. Used to be a much larger pool of EDM fans since we weren't so specialized in our tastes.

[Guest vaughan]

the main problem with electronic music is the seperation of the crowds due to the different genres.

the house heads hate trance

the trance heads hate techno

the techno heads hate breaks

the breaks heads hate drum and bass

and so on and so on.

in the early 90's if you liked electronic music , you were excited to hear new sounds. now the "scene" is so fragmented due to all these silly subgenres that its hard to get the crowds needed to support the music.

Yeah... I agree.. sort of... you'll always have that in ANY genre... look at Jazz... and rock... and even hip-hop... there's Rap, R&B, Hip-Hop, Gangsta Shit, Rock, Metal, Hard Rock, Alternative ROck, Folk Rock, Just Rock, Jazz, Fusion, Light Jazz, New Age, Swing, Bop, Neo-Classicism...

You could "gather the tribes" but A) it's too late... and people like what they like and that's just life

[Guest JustDade]

No one, because there's no market in that sort of thing. Promoters in this town want to make money promoting. The only independent promoters promote celeb parties.

Dan, you have learned well. The real answer is NOBODY because there's no $$$ in it. Look, I love the Aquabooty parties. I think they are as close to the real vibe of house as it gets in this town. Why has that party moved so many times? The answer is simple....$$$. Tomas and Joe are the real deal. They make a descent living but are in no way getting rich. They are happy doing something they love and making a few bucks doing it. The sad truth is that if they owned a venue, they too would have gone belly up a long time ago. Why? Because their crowd, while loyal and enthusiastic, does not spend the type of money a club needs to take in to succeed. Most of their crowd expects to be let in for free because, after all, they are supporting! Most don't have a lot of money. So while you may think it's a great crowd, the venue owner may look at it a little differently.

As a club owner your job is to give people what they want. If they want to be educated, they'll go to nightschool. They came to your bar for some fun and pussy and that's why Mansion dominates the Beach....FUN AND PUSSY!

[Guest pod]

There we go again. What is wrong with Miami being it's own planet? Why do we have to be like Europe, Japan, or Southeast Kreblakistan?

Again, the miracle of living on Planet Earth (Terra to you aliens) is that there's a variety of things going on in a variety of places. Different cultures shape different attitudes. Miami people like to go out, enjoy life and have fun. The club scene tends to reflect that in the way it is run, and the music that is played. Germany tends to be a serious and very orderly place. Their club scene reflects that.

And as Dade says, and I've been beating down the doors preaching it seems, but at the end of the day clubs are a fucking business. Things cost money. DJs don't (or shouldn't)play for free. Bartenders need to make money, the guy sweeping the floor needs to get paid, the sound system installer needs to be paid, etc... Especially down here, you can't open a club and hope to stay open catering to a niche market not known for spending money.

[Guest JustDade]

I'm talking more along the lines of Arc play whatever you want in the front room and play some other stuff in the back.

Rain was house in the front and oldschool hip hop in the back. Bedrock was the same with wierder sounds being played in the back room.

People will never clammor for underground beats if they don't even know they are around. What's popular is what get's exposure and even sometimes that doesn't mean shit here. Miami is its own planet and shows regardless of what's going in the rest of the world they will be stuck in their ways.

Look a dream of mine would be to see something like Cielo here, but with the attitudes of people it's never going to happen. Privilege was something that I will truly cherish because I got to live it. People are never satisfied in this town and its quite sad because we had it good. It comes down to numbers and we just don't have it. It's sad to say but it's true.

Tenaglia is playing friday so I'll get my underground fix then.

OK...here's the question...

Why did Privilege fail? After all, they had the whole techno market to themselves. In other words, they had no competition. They had a venue that had succeeded before. They had descent sound and lights. They had good financial backing. What went wrong, Ramon?

[Guest]

man... i just wish 25% of the people on this message board would get up one day and move to either Orlando, Atlanta, Tampa, San Diego, hell, even Las Vegas... or just some other city besides here, NYC, or Chicago.. Live there for one month... and you all will realize that we have it fucking made here in Miami.

Whoever is complaining about how miami's scene sucks has never lived outside of Miami.. and doesnt have a friggin clue about how fucking lame the scenes are across the country.

It blows my mind that people complain about Miami's scene. Sure, ok... we all know it's not the same that it was back in the day.. but for fucks sake... we still have it very good here.

Stop bitching and complaining.. go out.. have fun... and be thankful that the local government here still allows us to have 24 hour liquor licenses and not a 2am cut off time like 90% of the country has. You people are like whinning, spoiled brats.

geeeeez.

[Guest ramon]

I'm talking more along the lines of Arc play whatever you want in the front room and play some other stuff in the back.

Rain was house in the front and oldschool hip hop in the back. Bedrock was the same with wierder sounds being played in the back room.

People will never clammor for underground beats if they don't even know they are around. What's popular is what get's exposure and even sometimes that doesn't mean shit here. Miami is its own planet and shows regardless of what's going in the rest of the world they will be stuck in their ways.

Look a dream of mine would be to see something like Cielo here, but with the attitudes of people it's never going to happen. Privilege was something that I will truly cherish because I got to live it. People are never satisfied in this town and its quite sad because we had it good. It comes down to numbers and we just don't have it. It's sad to say but it's true.

Tenaglia is playing friday so I'll get my underground fix then.

OK...here's the question...

Why did Privilege fail? After all, they had the whole techno market to themselves. In other words, they had no competition. They had a venue that had succeeded before. They had descent sound and lights. They had good financial backing. What went wrong, Ramon?

People were never satisfied. They wanted what they couldn't have and when they did get it it was too late. It's a true shame. I saw more techno there outside of WMC then I'll probably see in this city for quite some time. We were a very small market to begin with , but when people won't come out for the common good it hurts everyone. I had some absolutely amazing nights there that I won't forget. You have to work your way up the ladder to get to the gold.

Booking agencies aren't going to give you what you want until you can prove that you are worth it. You can book some of the smaller guys and if they do well they actually give you what you want. Depending on schedules , tours , etc. The gold was Hawtin. He hadn't been here in a while and his name was starting to buzz in Miami again. People didn't understand that if they didn't come support what they did have soon they would have nothing. I ranted about this a very long time ago after a Marco Carola/Danilo Vilgorito show when the lack of atttendance was appauling. Privilege failed because of many reasons this was just one.

[ryan2772]

nikki beach was great last night!

[Guest JustDade]

They are businesses and as such are supposed to be based on sound business principles like selling something that people want.

Weird... there it is... and people usually pay a lot of money to "consultants" for that gem!

I know I'm having a good day on the boards when Vaughan agrees with me twice in one thread.