**UPDATED 3** Recent examples of a collapsing club scene:

[Guest vaughan]

Weird... there it is... and people usually pay a lot of money to "consultants" for that gem!

I know I'm having a good day on the boards when Vaughan agrees with me twice in one thread.

I am going to have to disagree with your last remark! LOL! ;D

[Guest pod]

The agencies and the club won't bother, is what you mean. If I was gonna take a risk and try booking a new genre of music (for Miami) at my club, and if the $3,000/night guy draws no crowd, why am I gonna book the $30,000/night guy? That's part of the problem, people want the creme of the crop right out of the gate. They don't know to build a successful night, it takes time, especially if the people behind it aren't known quantities. That's why it pays in this town to play nice with the known quantities instead of going for the jugular and trying to take them down. Make friends with them, rather than enemies. It might come to a point one day where you'll get your opportunity to let your skills as a promoter or a party planner to shine. Too many people wanna take on "The Man" rather than try and work with him.

So, let's review, what are the problems in dance-music clubland?

- Economics. Dance music folk have a huge sense of self-entitlement and want everything but the kitchen sink for free. Sometimes that can't be done. And if it is, you gotta earn it. Posting on the board or being a DJ whore doesn't cut it. A club is a business after all.

- Fracturing. Trance kids hate house. House kids hate trance. Techno kids hate house and trance. Breaks hits hate everything, even breaks. They're a contentious lot.

- DJ worship. The DJ is part of the party, not the party.

- Realizing, that in a positive way, Miami is it's own planet.

[Guest swank]

I have to disagree with the "Aquabooty clientele have no money" comment.

Maybe this clientele doesn't fall for simple club antics and really want to be "entertained". Problem is no mega club has the time or budget to build something like this so Aquabooty just 'moves along singin their song'.

I say back to the intimate club scene where everybody knows your name...kinda like "Cheers" ;D

[Guest pod]

I don't think anyone is saying they don't have money, it's an issue of spending said money.

[Guest JustDade]

I'm talking more along the lines of Arc play whatever you want in the front room and play some other stuff in the back.

Rain was house in the front and oldschool hip hop in the back. Bedrock was the same with wierder sounds being played in the back room.

People will never clammor for underground beats if they don't even know they are around. What's popular is what get's exposure and even sometimes that doesn't mean shit here. Miami is its own planet and shows regardless of what's going in the rest of the world they will be stuck in their ways.

Look a dream of mine would be to see something like Cielo here, but with the attitudes of people it's never going to happen. Privilege was something that I will truly cherish because I got to live it. People are never satisfied in this town and its quite sad because we had it good. It comes down to numbers and we just don't have it. It's sad to say but it's true.

Tenaglia is playing friday so I'll get my underground fix then.

OK...here's the question...

Why did Privilege fail? After all, they had the whole techno market to themselves. In other words, they had no competition. They had a venue that had succeeded before. They had descent sound and lights. They had good financial backing. What went wrong, Ramon?

People were never satisfied. They wanted what they couldn't have and when they did get it it was too late. It's a true shame. I saw more techno there outside of WMC then I'll probably see in this city for quite some time. We were a very small market to begin with , but when people won't come out for the common good it hurts everyone. I had some absolutely amazing nights there that I won't forget. You have to work your way up the ladder to get to the gold.

Booking agencies aren't going to give you what you want until you can prove that you are worth it. You can book some of the smaller guys and if they do well they actually give you what you want. Depending on schedules , tours , etc. The gold was Hawtin. He hadn't been here in a while and his name was starting to buzz in Miami again. People didn't understand that if they didn't come support what they did have soon they would have nothing. I ranted about this a very long time ago after a Marco Carola/Danilo Vilgorito show when the lack of atttendance was appauling. Privilege failed because of many reasons this was just one.

So basically what you're saying is this:

We were selling techno. Not a lot of people are into techno but I think they would have come if we had the techno celebrities like Richie Hawtin. We couldn't get the techno celebrities because the agents didn't want to book them there in case nobody wanted techno. The crowd didn't care enough to pay their dues with non-techno celebrity DJs so we never got the celebrity techno DJs. This is a shame because there were a few of us who really liked techno. We never invested in the club so the owner was basically spending his money for a handful of us to party.

What business school is teaching this method? Would he not have been wiser to do some research and find out what people would be willing to pay for instead of trying to get people to pay for something they didn't want?

[Guest swank]

I guess what I was trying to say was that it probably takes a little more than a couple a 'sticky fruit fly infested Goose bottles' and an un-interested host/ess to seperate them from their money.

[Guest pod]

You can't force a style of art on anyone. People have to come on their own accord. I don't want to be told to listen to techno, I want to check it out on my own schedule and terms.

Techno (or any other under-represented genre in town) can be played in this town if the right marketing engine is behind it. To an extent. You can't go totally 100% overboard. It's a gradual process if you will.

Another fatal mistake a lot of people trying to push under-represented styles in town is talking down to the potential market. Big mistake. I'm not gonna go to a party if I'm gonna feel like a buffoon being there.

[Bling]

ill read this thread once i get home in full.

[Guest JustDade]

I have to disagree with the "Aquabooty clientele have no money" comment.

Maybe this clientele doesn't fall for simple club antics and really want to be "entertained". Problem is no mega club has the time or budget to build something like this so Aquabooty just 'moves along singin their song'.

I say back to the intimate club scene where everybody knows your name...kinda like "Cheers" ;D

"Simple club antics"???? Your post makes no sense.

How about this.......Aquabooty fills every room they host parties in yet somehow the club still loses money....why?

I've worked with them so I know the financial realities. They get their talent at great prices because of personal relationships. They are not greedy so it's not that they charge the venue too much. They attract a loyal following. They promote smart and well. So if the expenses are low and the room is full why are clubs not happy with them? Because the crowd is not spending money.

[Guest pod]

Bling, your head will explode.

[Guest swank]

I have to disagree with the "Aquabooty clientele have no money" comment.

Maybe this clientele doesn't fall for simple club antics and really want to be "entertained". Problem is no mega club has the time or budget to build something like this so Aquabooty just 'moves along singin their song'.

I say back to the intimate club scene where everybody knows your name...kinda like "Cheers" ;D

"Simple club antics"???? Your post makes no sense.

How about this.......Aquabooty fills every room they host parties in yet somehow the club still loses money....why?

I've worked with them so I know the financial realities. They get their talent at great prices because of personal relationships. They are not greedy so it's not that they charge the venue too much. They attract a loyal following. They promote smart and well. So if the expenses are low and the room is full why are clubs not happy with them? Because the crowd is not spending money.

I guess what I was trying to say was that it probably takes a little more than a couple a 'sticky fruit fly infested Goose bottles' and an un-interested host/ess to seperate them from their money.

My post makes no sense to those who don't understand...

Dade, I'm not about to have a 20 post joust with you but I spent a minimum of $100-$150 dollars with Broy everytime I went to an Aquabooty party at your place. Why the club lost money is for them to figure out. Every problem is a solution waiting to happen.

I would have made it a point to train my staff in the art of "upsell" and I would have put a few waitresses on the floor to sell booze to the people standing around and posing instead of waiting for them to come to the bar. There are also ways to make a venue more freindly to everyone and not just the drones who buy bottles, afterall isn't part of the business plan to try and turn potential customers into actual customers.

But hey...me, I'm just another music lover wishing that we could get back to the essence of the party....all elements of the party. ;D

[Guest Sobebeats]

That was a good call Barbarino, and I have to agree with you on some things........SOME.

All people do is complain about how bad the scene in Miami is, how the music sucks and there's nothing to do. But on any given weekend you have talent right here in South Florida. Of course you're going to find the usual suspects at parties like Local Celebrity and Space but typically that's the same crowd. Where did all of the music heads go? Oh right most of them are at home complaining how shitty the nightlife is in Miami. If it's so bad then do something about it. We had Loco Dice here a week ago and all people could do is complain about how shitty the venue was and the sound was terrible, nobody failed to realize that freakin Loco Dice was here!

On another note, we had an awesome time on Friday night in Palm Beach. hehehehe

I saw FREAKING Loco Dice and Steve Bug in TWO diferent parties the SAME day!!! hehehehe

It is all about EVOLUTION; Moreover, who told you that the next great thing was Loco? Or Oscar? or Steve? or Pod? or Hatiwn? or Chris? or aka1200? or Tiesto?

It is all about economics. If you don't want to play the economic factor, you just have to be happy with what you have.

[Guest JustDade]

I guess what I was trying to say was that it probably takes a little more than a couple a 'sticky fruit fly infested Goose bottles' and an un-interested host/ess to seperate them from their money.

Again....I don't get it.

They got the music they love played by the DJ they loved at a great party hosted by the promoters they love at a club they love. What more did they need to decide to support the cause?

Oh Yeah....that's the real issue here. Supporting does not mean that you showed up for the event. Supporting means that you actually put your money where your mouth is and spend a few bucks to support the cause.

Just because you showed up at Shine and got comped in and your pal at the bar gave you some free drinks does not make you a supporter....it makes you a leach. If you leave and complain about the lack of support, it makes you an asshole too.

[Guest pod]

Swank, you're the exception, not the rule. Just because you spend doesn't mean the rest do. I've seen people spend at the bar at "music" events before, but not like the masses at say, a more general event at a mega club or at a hip-hop night where outspending your homie is a mark of pride.

Spending oodles of money isn't the solution though. It would take way more than that, considering where DJ fees are nowadays. If anything brings DJ fees down it will be clubs relying more on local and second-line DJs.

[Guest swank]

I guess what I was trying to say was that it probably takes a little more than a couple a 'sticky fruit fly infested Goose bottles' and an un-interested host/ess to seperate them from their money.

Just because you showed up at Shine and got comped in and your pal at the bar gave you some free drinks does not make you a supporter....it makes you a leach. If you leave and complain about the lack of support, it makes you an asshole too.

???

[Guest swank]

Swank, you're the exception, not the rule. Just because you spend doesn't mean the rest do. I've seen people spend at the bar at "music" events before, but not like the masses at say, a more general event at a mega club or at a hip-hop night where outspending your homie is a mark of pride.

Spending oodles of money isn't the solution though. It would take way more than that, considering where DJ fees are nowadays. If anything brings DJ fees down it will be clubs relying more on local and second-line DJs.

POD, I know that you are witness to my "support" but it has less to do with the venue and more to do with having a good time when I go out. Everytime we've bumped into each other we always have a little toast to start off the night and you know that I DON'T pay with drink tickets...not because I wouldn't like to but because I never push that envelope.

If I get tickets...bonus, if not, it won't change my night.

[ryan2772]

dead horse?

jesus.

[Guest JustDade]

I have to disagree with the "Aquabooty clientele have no money" comment.

Maybe this clientele doesn't fall for simple club antics and really want to be "entertained". Problem is no mega club has the time or budget to build something like this so Aquabooty just 'moves along singin their song'.

I say back to the intimate club scene where everybody knows your name...kinda like "Cheers" ;D

"Simple club antics"???? Your post makes no sense.

How about this.......Aquabooty fills every room they host parties in yet somehow the club still loses money....why?

I've worked with them so I know the financial realities. They get their talent at great prices because of personal relationships. They are not greedy so it's not that they charge the venue too much. They attract a loyal following. They promote smart and well. So if the expenses are low and the room is full why are clubs not happy with them? Because the crowd is not spending money.

I guess what I was trying to say was that it probably takes a little more than a couple a 'sticky fruit fly infested Goose bottles' and an un-interested host/ess to seperate them from their money.

My post makes no sense to those who don't understand...

Dade, I'm not about to have a 20 post joust with you but I spent a minimum of $100-$150 dollars with Broy everytime I went to an Aquabooty party at your place. Why the club lost money is for them to figure out. Every problem is a solution waiting to happen.

I would have made it a point to train my staff in the art of "upsell" and I would have put a few waitresses on the floor to sell booze to the people standing around and posing instead of waiting for them to come to the bar. There are also ways to make a venue more freindly to everyone and not just the drones who buy bottles, afterall isn't part of the business plan to try and turn potential customers into actual customers.

But hey...me, I'm just another music lover wishing that we could get back to the essence of the party....all elements of the party. ;D

WHATTHEFUCK??????

Let me get this straight....

Drones who buy bottles = Bad

Upselling regular people to buy bottles = Good

BTW - Part of the whole Aquabooty thing is NOT to upsell or push tables.

[AndrewChibale]

dead horse?

jesus.

lol, i know ....

interesting thread, it is an endless conversation ... the only problem is ... most people r just far too damn lazy to go out there and try to make a difference so our scene will get better ..

[Guest Devilicious]

As the bartender Bruce [swank] most often went to at Shine I can attest to the fact that he paid for his drinks. He never asked for or expected any freebies and rarely used drink tickets.

He might have had a lemon drop or two on Jon, but speaking of him personally: he is not a leech.

[Guest JustDade]

As the bartender Bruce [swank] most often went to at Shine I can attest to the fact that he paid for his drinks. He never asked for or expected any freebies and rarely used drink tickets.

He might have had a lemon drop or two on Jon, but speaking of him personally: he is not a leech.

I wasn't speaking of him or anyone else specifically. I was trying to illustrate a point. Jon is the best example of a guy who believed that people would come for great music. People don't come for great music. People come for great hype. Jon has gone bust in two places by making the same mistake.

Ask Jon what happened when he tried to get the music lovers to pay a cover at Nerve. As long as it was free there was a crowd.

[Guest LeVeL]

The thing I dont understand is with all the high fee's being charged by Dj's now in days, they still manage to get booked like crazy in Europe,Asia and Beyond. We're the financial capital of the world and to us the fee's that clubs are charging when these Dj's come to town is just ridiculous.

Makes me wonder if these Dj's charge less when they are abroad ? These Dj's are booked 75% of the time abroad more often than here.

As far as people leaching, well it happens everytime, I see some of our fellow board members take advantage of the friendships they have made in the club industry by getting free admission and getting hooked up with drinks .When I go out, if I have free entrance, I am more than happy to spend money once inside, wish more people would realize that they are infact hurting the club they love and frequent by leeching.

[Guest musicalmissionary]

The answer my friends is OPEN FORMAT!!!!!

Variety is the spice of life... and the path to progress. Open format simply means FUCK GENRES... just play good fuckin booty-shakin music. You can still drop house/techno/electronic beats along with funk/booty/hip-hop... if you know what you're doing. The best DJ's on the planet already mix multiple genres and the diversity in there sets will only continue to expand as clubgoers' Attention Deficit Disorder gets worse (or perhaps better depending on how you look at it).

And yes this message was signed, sealed, and delivered by a card-carrying member of the Music Snob Association.

[Guest pod]

Because one of the tenets of this country is (supposedly) good business sense. It's hard to justify paying $75,000 or more to some guy who realistically dances around and plays someone else's music for four hours. Now people like Sasha and PvD are the exception, they actually work for their paychecks when performing. I'm not saying DJs don't deserve to get paid, it's just that booking fees by and large are out of control, for a club economy that more and more is refusing to support it.

I don't think anyone was implying Bruce doesn't pay for his drinks when out and about. What Dade and me were getting at is that in general the scenester crowd is not spending money period. That huge sense of self-entitlement kicks in again. "Oh, I talked to Shlomo Baylaleonov for six hours on IM yesterday! Let me in and give me a comp bottle!"

The dance music club scene has been and is in trouble. I and a few other have been ranting about this for quite awhile now. Most people can't see beyond their own asses and now that short-sightedness is being visited on them. Just because Blue and Laundry Bar are packed when local and obscure DJs are booked does not signify a healthy scene. A pimple on a corpse might consider itself special, but in the end it's just another kind of dead meat.

Not that dance music is dead in Miami, there's still a chance, albeit a very slim one, of a revival. People just have to get their heads out their asses, stop gravitating so much on the DJ and trainspotting, and remember to go out and have fun.

[Guest spinderella7713]

while you all make great points....except the whole fruit fly lazy hostess??? ??? im still confused on that one.....

The point is that people got older, and the new generation will have other things. most people who started the whole EDM thing are now with their families, or accomplishing careers in real life....same as the whole disco era that was brought up earlier, people grew up. Some of us were lucky enough to live in the EDM era (It was never going to be a huge thing like 80s, or disco because there is no mainwave backing for it...no radio, no MTV) One day we will be lucky enough to talk about our SPACE memories like people do of studio 54. I dont think EDM is done yet.........but it will have its time.

One day Eric Morillo will mean as much to me as George Micheal now does...once I loved the man......but I know there is going to be some story about him in a mans bathroom.