**UPDATED 3** Recent examples of a collapsing club scene:

[Bling]

ok it took me 30 min to read all this ... here are my two cents.....

THE DANCE MUSIC SCENE IN MIAMI IS ON LIFE SUPPORT.. It has been for a long time now. HIP HOP has already taken over a long time ago. BUT IS IT DEAD.. NO ITS NOT!!!

Im not rich.... I have a stressful 9-5 job (as many of you have as well) and on weekends (though not nearly as much as i used to), i would like to enjoy listening to some house music with friends

99% of the time that means going to an Aquabooty Party (wherever it is... i dont care)

I will agree with Dade's comments for the most part about AB. No one promotes better than Joe and Tomas . Aquabooty is the truest and most genuine House party this city has.

I applaud Joe and Tomas for busting their ass week in and week out to educate the masses. House is a passion for them. Its not about making it rich .. if it was they would have said fuck it and started to promote hip hop.

Same goes for Jon. Jon Cowan is another person in this industry with a passion for Dance music. Though unfortunatly in his case, promoting and owning nightclubs concurrently is just not an thing to do without a killer promotion staff. . Obviously you also need people to drop $$ ...

I could only imagine the level of insane parties we would see if Jon and Aquabooty teamed up.

A club run by Jon Cowan and promoted by Aquabooty. Musical Nirvana.

Could it happen? Who knows. Probably not .

Yeah I get comped.... but you know what I dont take advantage either. Whether it be through my reviews (as silly as they are at timesand pics.. (by doing so i believe i am promoting in a way from a non industry person's perspective love for music and those that bring that music to this city) as well as of course dropping cash at the bar.

Albeit im not a huge drinker . i get wasted pretty easy im like 140 soaking wet. but i do my part.

The scene though has just stagnated at least in Miami for the time being.

By no means is House music or EDM in this country over. Look at Chicago, San Fransisco,Dallas, NYC... the underground is alive and well.

And if you look hard enough its alive here in Miami as well. While not so much in the larger venues like Mansion..etc (where hip hop and open format have taken over..... because that is what brings $$$)

Is that a bad thing... hell no.... if i was working in the nightclub biz i want to make cash...... so hip hop it is......

am i a bastard for that... no.......does that make me hate house .... no but it puts food on the table.

thats why i respect people like joe and tomas who are at it every week continuing to do what they do i applaud them and support in any way i can

[Guest pod]

Well at least you see the reality of the situation.

Yes, right now dance music in Miami is not doing so well.

Right now, the biggest threat to a healthy dance scene isn't hip-hop or the legal environments, the biggest threat right now to dance music is dance music. Music snobs abound, and are killing what's left of the scene.

You get people going "Oh, it was great, there were no guidos/people from Kendall/people from Hialeah there". It's those guidos/people from Kendall/people from Hialeah that are ripe for the picking as it were.

Beach people are too cool for school and won't pay for a damn thing. They'd get comped at the 7-11 if they could figure out how. Music heads either want it for free, or they sit home and jack off to YouTube videos of Ibiza all night. It's the oh-so-dreaded suburban kids, the bridge-and-tunnelers of Miami that pay for things, and are usually glad to. They're happy to see OG at Space, Danny at Twilo, and they're happy to pay $20-$40 for the privilege, and then maybe a few drinks once inside. Yeah they'll try for a hookup (most of the time through this site), but if the list isn't available, they understand going out and having fun has a cost, and they'll pay for it.

At the risk of sounding like an old fart, I can remember back as recently as three or four years ago, when a guest DJ would come to town, be it Nick Warren at crobar, or Deep Dish at the start of their residency at Space, the same 'crew' would show up. It might not necessarily be the precise style they liked, but they welcomed the guest DJ nonetheless, as it would usually be that much better of a party. A drink or ten into the night, no one really noticed who was on the decks.

Then for whatever reason, people got 'serious' about their DJs and would bitch and whine (and invariably do nothing about it) and then take sides. People who liked trance wouldn't show for house events and vice versa. People forgot to party and have fun. Hell, some guy slagged on me for being a "fence sitter" and that I should "make up my mind already" about which type of event I would support.

Here's a Pod Challenge for 2007. I'll do it myself even. Trance kids, go to a house night. Deep House, disco house, whatever. You'll be surprised. People will be having fun. House kids. Go see PvD at Space or something. It's pretty epic. And you know what. I don't know when, but I'm gonna try and hit up a drum n bass or a breaks show at some point. Shitty thing is, those are in Broward, and me being car-less makes it a pain.

[Guest Cosmigonon]

There we go again. What is wrong with Miami being it's own planet? Why do we have to be like Europe, Japan, or Southeast Kreblakistan?

Amen brotha

[Guest pod]

At least someone agrees with me. Sometimes I feel like I'm talking to a wall.

Let me revise that. I'm not looking for abject agreement, but more of a "Oh, I see where you're coming from..." I welcome debate. Hell this thread is the best one we've had in awhile.

And dance music fans, I really do have your best interests at heart.

[djoscarg]

my two cents....

I think you have to consider who is involved in this debate...and the fact that it's on CJ....

For starters...this thread was started by a gentleman who hasn't set foot in a club in ages...he spews out a bunch of nonsense for attention,and frustrated industry folks jump on the opportunity to voice their own gripes...(myself included)

Truth is...the scene is fine.

I think this is simply a case where "the scene" is passing people by and they just dont realize it...Most of the "regulars" around here have most likely reduced their club outtings significantly...not because the scene is collapsing, but simply because life moves on...priorites change...people grow up, get jobs, partners, kids etc....Its a natural progression...

but what you're left with is, a bunch of folks who really dont go out, or represent the average clubber, coming on a message board and discussing theories and reasons why "it is'nt what it used to be"

guess what kids....that just makes you OLD! lol

You also have your self-serving elitists....who somehow have dissected house music into this segmented, sub-genre, scientific, holier than thou cult....which actually has nothing to do with the original idea behind it AT ALL...using words like GENUINE, UNDERGROUND, REAL, TRUE

I even read somehwere on this thread that its a good thing that house music is being "brought back to the small venues where it started..and where it belongs" HUH? so massive venues like The Warehouse, Paradise Garage ,Music Box, Sound Factory (later Twilo), Zanzibar, Red Zone, Pacha (Ibiza), Yellow, Zouk, Stereo, The Hacienda, Ministry...etc etc were just after thoughts?? ummm..no, they are the foundation...

There is a reason I choose not to get too caught up in messageboard BS and politics...it simply DOESN'T MATTER....I focus on one thing....dancefloors full of people willing to experience house music..

I'm out on the trenches week in and week out...live and breathe this music...and have since I was a teenager...its a HUGE part of my life (and the only thing I know I can count on)

I know Space is the butt of many jokes around here..especially the elitists'....but that will ALWAYS be the case...but...I know I see hundreds of young faces there every week eager to hear new music...Space probably does more volume than any other club in town...and the previlant format is house music..

You have Local Celebrity at Noc (along with guests), Aquabooty, Lust, Mansion bringing in DJs now on a regular basis, people like Loco and Clive showing up at Opium, Pawn Shop brings guests, DT monthly at Twilo along with several other guests, etc etc etc

yet we're here whining about the local scene??? and a collapse???

take a look around my friends...the scene is pretty healthy around here!

for Pete's sake...Bling is pointing to Dallas as an example of cities that have got it "going on"!!!! are you fucking kidding me?!?!?

just ask the Granite & Phunk guys!!!

I think we had a huge popularity spike among local DJs and promoters in recent years...Many new cats came on the scene as "house DJsand promoters" because it was THE popular genre in ALL the clubs for a bit (VIP venues included) It oversaturated "the scene" and now there is a cleansing process (there always is...and this isnt the first or last time) Cleansings arent free of casualties...but sometimes its necessary to filter out excess..

Those who remain true haven't a thing to worry about.

The music is the basis for all of this..and the music is doing JUST FINE!

(Am I the only one old enough to remember a time when the only choice you had in this town to hear House music was Danny T @ Cheers or Padilla @ Warsaw?!? being a straight guy this wasnt the MOST convenient of arrangements! Its funny to me to hear people bitching and moaning now)

[Guest]

Post #46 in this topic is my 2 cents. Well said ^ And Dallas? I was out there a few months ago.. and its anything but great.

[Guest deprivation]

I'm a civilian compared to all the promoters and insiders,but I thought I'd post to give you thoughts of an average clubber.

I'm relatively new to town and think the music scene here is great compared to Houston where I'm from. Being new, I also realize that things may have been better in Miami years ago but to many of us who are new to the club scene in South Florida like the many choices of DJs I get to see.

I got to see Loco Dice and Tiesto within a few days of each other and had a good time at both shows. And partying late at Space in the morning is lots of fun and you can't do in most other big cities. And I like to hit clubs that play hip hop, rock, etc. I don't see any reason to stick to one genre of music if the party is lots of fun.

[Guest swirlundergrounder]

The cult of the DJ is dead and officially over.

Yep and I'm proof of that... I'm like the Obi Wan Kenobi of DJs who lurks around here and there like he did on Tatooine....lol

I remember the days when people found out that if you were a DJ they would say 'WOW YOU'RE A DJ??'

Now they say something like.. 'so you're a dj? I have a dj program on my computer. I don't know how to use it but it looks like a lot of fun'...

DJing used to be somewhat of a Noble profession up until about 4 years ago but then something happened (the laptop DJ program and Beatport) and it spread like wildfire! I bet you that there are more DJs then there are bartenders.

But not as much are there are Starbucks though...

I personally blame the technology that EDM embrasses as the downfall of the EDM scene. Having music more available and portable ruined it period!!

There was once a day only recenlty when the only way you could hear our music is if you actually went out or you were lucky enough to get a rare copy of a mixed tape of your favorite DJ and you cherished it because it was the only copy of it in the city.

Now music is not cherished. It's disposable!

I get an email from Beatport every 3 days that says 'We added 4000 new songs'..

Dude 4000 new songs every 3 or 4 days is out of control... WTF??

How can you appreciate music that you buy for $1.00 that everyone has access to??

And how does that unappreciation for music translate down to the people who go out and listen to it??

[Guest Cosmigonon]

The cult of the DJ is dead and officially over.

Yep and I'm proof of that... I'm like the Obi Wan Kenobi of DJs who lurks around here and there like he did on Tatooine....lol

I remember the days when people found out that if you were a DJ they would say 'WOW YOU'RE A DJ??'

Now they say something like.. 'so you're a dj? I have a dj program on my computer. I don't know how to use it but it looks like a lot of fun'...

DJing used to be somewhat of a Noble profession up until about 4 years ago but then something happened (the laptop DJ program and Beatport) and it spread like wildfire! I bet you that there are more DJs then there are bartenders.

But not as much are there are Starbucks though...

I personally blame the technology that EDM embrasses as the downfall of the EDM scene. Having music more available and portable ruined it period!!

There was once a day only recenlty when the only way you could hear our music is if you actually went out or you were lucky enough to get a rare copy of a mixed tape of your favorite DJ and you cherished it because it was the only copy of it in the city.

Now music is not cherished. It's disposable!

I get an email from Beatport every 3 days that says 'We added 4000 new songs'..

Dude 4000 new songs every 3 or 4 days is out of control... WTF??

How can you appreciate music that you buy for $1.00 that everyone has access to??

And how does that unappreciation for music translate down to the people who go out and listen to it??

Terry, that's a sily argument. Just because there is more music available doesn;t mean people are not enthused about it. If that was the case, hip hop would the least popular genre now, given the huge amounts of people doing hip hop nowadays all over the country.

[Guest swirlundergrounder]

The cult of the DJ is dead and officially over.

Yep and I'm proof of that... I'm like the Obi Wan Kenobi of DJs who lurks around here and there like he did on Tatooine....lol

I remember the days when people found out that if you were a DJ they would say 'WOW YOU'RE A DJ??'

Now they say something like.. 'so you're a dj? I have a dj program on my computer. I don't know how to use it but it looks like a lot of fun'...

DJing used to be somewhat of a Noble profession up until about 4 years ago but then something happened (the laptop DJ program and Beatport) and it spread like wildfire! I bet you that there are more DJs then there are bartenders.

But not as much are there are Starbucks though...

I personally blame the technology that EDM embrasses as the downfall of the EDM scene. Having music more available and portable ruined it period!!

There was once a day only recenlty when the only way you could hear our music is if you actually went out or you were lucky enough to get a rare copy of a mixed tape of your favorite DJ and you cherished it because it was the only copy of it in the city.

Now music is not cherished. It's disposable!

I get an email from Beatport every 3 days that says 'We added 4000 new songs'..

Dude 4000 new songs every 3 or 4 days is out of control... WTF??

How can you appreciate music that you buy for $1.00 that everyone has access to??

And how does that unappreciation for music translate down to the people who go out and listen to it??

Terry, that's a sily argument. Just because there is more music available doesn;t mean people are not enthused about it. If that was the case, hip hop would the least popular genre now, given the huge amounts of people doing hip hop nowadays all over the country.

I never said that people are not enthusiastic about it. Don't confuse enthusiasm with appreciation.

They are 2 very different things!

It's very easy to become 'enthusiastic' about something.

But it's much harder to maintain 'appreciation' for something when it can be taken for granted more easily.

And you have to admit that people take dance music for granted more so now than they have in the past..

[Guest Cosmigonon]

Still that's not one of the causes for the declining of the EDM scene. Rock was always available since I was born, and it still was for many, many years to come, and it didn;t diminisn its availability.

The fact that technology makes it easier for people to get their hands on tracks, actually gives it a boost., but it will never be the cause for its stalmation.

That doesn't make any sense, if you think about it. I've never been more into house music as now that it's so available to me. When I first got in to electronic music, it was very hard for me to find the music I hear at clubs, I didn;t know the djs, there were no message boards (not that I knew at least), i had no idea of the name of the producers, let alone the name of the tracks, in fact I didn't know shit.

All I knew is I liked the music andf I liked to dance. But I was missing out on a lot of things, djs, sounds, by not knowing anything. Now I know a whole lot more, and that makes me appreciate music even more, now I look forwaard to certain dj's, I am aware of thing, and I tell you, I've never been so much in love with house music as now, and now I buy cd's, go to more events, back then when i didn;t know, I prollu wouldn;t have cared if a certain dj was in town on anything.

If anything technology helps, not the opposite. To blame technology for the demainstreamization of EDM (did I just make up a word?)is just ludicrous.

[Guest pod]

Did that word underline when you typed it out? If so, it's a new word.

I'm a bit of a worrywort when it comes the dance music scene. It's not all roses, but the way things are now does make me worry. I worry that all the infighting will lead to bad things.

Again, and finally. Get out there and have fun. Don't worry about genres and subgenres.

Even if you're old, put the kids with the grandparents and go out and have fun. ;D

[Guest swirlundergrounder]

Still that's not one of the causes for the declining of the EDM scene. Rock was always available since I was born, and it still was for many, many years to come, and it didn;t diminisn its availability.

The fact that technology makes it easier for people to get their hands on tracks, actually gives it a boost., but it will never be the cause for its stalmation.

That doesn't make any sense, if you think about it. I've never been more into house music as now that it's so available to me. When I first got in to electronic music, it was very hard for me to find the music I hear at clubs, I didn;t know the djs, there were no message boards (not that I knew at least), i had no idea of the name of the producers, let alone the name of the tracks, in fact I didn't know shit.

All I knew is I liked the music andf I liked to dance. But I was missing out on a lot of things, djs, sounds, by not knowing anything. Now I know a whole lot more, and that makes me appreciate music even more, now I look forwaard to certain dj's, I am aware of thing, and I tell you, I've never been so much in love with house music as now, and now I buy cd's, go to more events, back then when i didn;t know, I prollu wouldn;t have cared if a certain dj was in town on anything.

If anything technology helps, not the opposite. To blame technology for the demainstreamization of EDM (did I just make up a word?)is just ludicrous.

Dude 'demainstreamization'???

HHA HAHAHHAH HA HA

LMFAO... How can I counter your arguement when you come up with a word that's making me laugh so hard right now.. ;D

[Guest pod]

Josh is taking a cue from Colbert. ;D

[Guest pod]

So, did any trainspotters cry today?

[Guest Tru1]

Oscar,

Very well put. You definitely hit the nail on the head. Several years ago when I was a full time promoter I noticed there was a definite transition in the scene about every six months to a year. Most people that club on a regular basis are in a phase of their lives that doesn't and shouldn't last for too long.

However, I do have one very important piece of wisdom to give to the jaded ones on this board...

Innovate.

I believe that many of the posters on CJ have been around for a long time.

The reason why you feel it is stale is because it is not new to you anymore.

It is just human nature to not be as excited for something the fourth time as you were the first.

So...what should you do?...create change...innovate, bring something new and exciting to the market. That is how trends start, fads are made, and fortunes are won.

Anyone can rant on a messageboard.

If it bothers you that much, go out and make a change!

A lot of people on this board have been hating on Oakenfold for a few years now.

Let me tell you about him.

Technically, is he the best DJ in the world?

No,

However, do you know why is one of the most successful on the planet?

Because he took a culture that he found on a small island and made it a worldwide phenomenon.

It takes vision, talent, and unrelenting ambition, but the next big fad/sound/trend/etc. is out there. The people that can identify and succesfully implement it will make themselves one hell of a life...do you have what it takes?

Case in point,

Look at Grutman, he went from being a small player a couple of years ago to one of the Dons of the Sobe scene because he recognized and implemented what has become one of the biggest driving forces in the scene.

The next big wave is out there...let's see who steps up and brings it to the masses.

[Guest]

The cult of the DJ is dead and officially over.

Yep and I'm proof of that... I'm like the Obi Wan Kenobi of DJs who lurks around here and there like he did on Tatooine....lol

I remember the days when people found out that if you were a DJ they would say 'WOW YOU'RE A DJ??'

Now they say something like.. 'so you're a dj? I have a dj program on my computer. I don't know how to use it but it looks like a lot of fun'...

DJing used to be somewhat of a Noble profession up until about 4 years ago but then something happened (the laptop DJ program and Beatport) and it spread like wildfire! I bet you that there are more DJs then there are bartenders.

But not as much are there are Starbucks though...

I personally blame the technology that EDM embrasses as the downfall of the EDM scene. Having music more available and portable ruined it period!!

There was once a day only recenlty when the only way you could hear our music is if you actually went out or you were lucky enough to get a rare copy of a mixed tape of your favorite DJ and you cherished it because it was the only copy of it in the city.

Now music is not cherished. It's disposable!

I get an email from Beatport every 3 days that says 'We added 4000 new songs'..

Dude 4000 new songs every 3 or 4 days is out of control... WTF??

How can you appreciate music that you buy for $1.00 that everyone has access to??

And how does that unappreciation for music translate down to the people who go out and listen to it??

with all respect.... your post sounds like the typical trainspotter who wants to keep this scene underground... and it being mainstream is HORRIBLE/CHEESY/SELL-OUT for this scene. Of course there is going to be a lot more music avail... mp3's are a hell of a lot cheaper to distribute than vinyl or cd's.

If the music does not get out in the open (to the mainstream, general public) then it is NEVER going to evolve. I personally think that Beatport is the best thing that could have ever happened to EDM.

I dont know a damn thing about djing.. but I do know that I can whip up a sick 1 hour mix set on my computer using mixmesiter... now, does this mean that i am going to burn that mix to a cd and promo it all over south florida clubs as DJ ICON hoping to land a gig somewhere? of course not because Im not a dj and i never want to be a dj.... the majority of the people that do have these computer programs do it soley for their enjoyment (hobby) and to hand out to friends, etc.

i guess the point i am trying to make... lets say if i did land a gig somewhere using my Mixmeister promo cd... wtf am i going to do? Bring in my desktop computer with the mixmeister program installed and pretend that i am mixing to the crowd? That's nonsene.

I personally dont think that beatport or computer programs have any negative effect on our music scene... it only helps spread the music to the general public. Now, kids can bedroom dj... burn out 20 cds to give out to their friends.. which is all free promotion to this type of music... times this by hundreds of thousands of kids that have these programs installed on their computers.. and in the end.. it's all free promotion to edm music that wasnt available 5 years ago.

[Guest pod]

I can agree with that. Every so often, I'll feel like I'm in a rut. What I'll do is start dicking around with my shooting, try new angles, swap out some lenses, etc. People ask me how the hell I've managed to hang out in clubs a few nights a week for closing in on a decade now, and it's just that I find new things to make it interesting.

It's why usually I'm selective about where I cover beyond monetary reasons. The reason I pick the places I shoot at is because they're usually manned by the innovators in town, the people who will actually change the look and feel of a place every few months, that sort of thing.

I've seen the crowd flip over god knows how many times now. Not nearly as long as the true vets like LP, Grutman, Dade, The Guerras, etc, but long enough to have taken note of many a sea change in the scene. I kinda laugh when you've got people on here going "I've been on South Beach for three years now!" like it's some sort of record. Come back in ten (me), twenty or more (the real vents I mentioned above...) and then we'll talk.

One of the things with this scene is it is very ruthless in it's policies. It has a habit of taking innocents and either killing them (figuratively) or converting them into utter hellions. It's like college with better music, lighting, and more foreign exchange students. I've seen many a person move down here from Bumfuck, Virginia, and get swallowed up, and spat out like a bad piece of pizza at Rustica (oh but aren't they all bad...). With that, definitely leads to a jaded-ness, even amongst the comparative newbies. Hell, I'm guilty of it. But like Evan says, anyone can rant on a messageboard. Here, it's preaching to the choir. Self-affirmation if you will. Sadly, sometimes it amounts to just that. People rant and rave, and then do nothing. I guess clubland isn't important to them as they make it out to be in their postings.

If you're not gonna do anything, don't bitch to begin with. Don't whine about how no one brings Ritchie and then sit it out when a club goes out on a limb and books, say, Christian Smith or something. He's not Ritchie, but it's a step in the direction of Ritchie. And certainly don't sneer at people who may not get or want to get the genre. Be accepting if someone says "Oh it sounded like a bunch of video game sounds to me..." Believe it or not, some people like vocals and hooks in their music. Deep Dish are Grammy winnners because of it. I forget the exact quote, but the boys said something to the effect of "giving the audience something they'll remember or hum the next day out of the blue..."

Each time I see a club go from dance to open format or hip-hop, I groan inwardly, but realize it's the way things are right now.

Am I still a little worried? Certainly, that comes with the territory. Do I think dance music is gonna fully be put out to pasture? Nah. There'll always be at least one big venue and several smaller ones catering to that market. If the rock n roll kids can get a club for a couple of years, I think the dance gang can hold on to a few during these hard times as well. Rock n roll kids spend even less money than dance kids, by the way.

[Guest Marina22]

The agencies and the club won't bother, is what you mean. If I was gonna take a risk and try booking a new genre of music (for Miami) at my club, and if the $3,000/night guy draws no crowd, why am I gonna book the $30,000/night guy? That's part of the problem, people want the creme of the crop right out of the gate. They don't know to build a successful night, it takes time, especially if the people behind it aren't known quantities. That's why it pays in this town to play nice with the known quantities instead of going for the jugular and trying to take them down. Make friends with them, rather than enemies. It might come to a point one day where you'll get your opportunity to let your skills as a promoter or a party planner to shine. Too many people wanna take on "The Man" rather than try and work with him.

So, let's review, what are the problems in dance-music clubland?

- Economics. Dance music folk have a huge sense of self-entitlement and want everything but the kitchen sink for free. Sometimes that can't be done. And if it is, you gotta earn it. Posting on the board or being a DJ whore doesn't cut it. A club is a business after all.

- Fracturing. Trance kids hate house. House kids hate trance. Techno kids hate house and trance. Breaks hits hate everything, even breaks. They're a contentious lot.

- DJ worship. The DJ is part of the party, not the party.

- Realizing, that in a positive way, Miami is it's own planet.

I picked pod's quote (reasons of decline) since he's knee deep in this industry week in and week out. I agree with OG's two cents which counter the title of this thread. So to sum it up with pod's reasons :-\:

Economics- I know that I am not your "average clubgoer" (even though I was at one point) but I am not an elitist clubgoer either. I enjoy all types of dance music but I just frequent some genre based nights more than others since I only go out so much.. If you are serious Dan, I'll give you a ride to one of these D&B or breaks nights here in Broward (just so you don't have an excuse) and so there can be some pics on cj to prove it.

Sure, I'll try to get in for free to some events but if I can't, fuck it, I pay. I also tend to spend more at any given event if the party is fun or if the dj that I paid to see is making me go nuts on the dancefloor. Some of my highest bar tabs have been on these great nights, so I guess I'm a dj whore.. :

Fracturing- (Sounds like an injury to the bone) I think you mean market segmentation vs. de-segmentation. I can see how this can hurt the industry but I think it can also help it. If there are more genres/sub-genres there are more parties as a whole but also there would be more less profitable parties too. I do think that this is up to the promoters and the consumers.

The promoters have to know what party is going to profit where. The consumer has to "support" (as much as I am sick of that now) as many genres or variety of parties as they can. I for one like to go to Space but I don't like going every week or even every month. So, I balance it out and maybe check out a new smaller club here and there.

[Guest Marina22]

The agencies and the club won't bother, is what you mean. If I was gonna take a risk and try booking a new genre of music (for Miami) at my club, and if the $3,000/night guy draws no crowd, why am I gonna book the $30,000/night guy? That's part of the problem, people want the creme of the crop right out of the gate. They don't know to build a successful night, it takes time, especially if the people behind it aren't known quantities. That's why it pays in this town to play nice with the known quantities instead of going for the jugular and trying to take them down. Make friends with them, rather than enemies. It might come to a point one day where you'll get your opportunity to let your skills as a promoter or a party planner to shine. Too many people wanna take on "The Man" rather than try and work with him.

So, let's review, what are the problems in dance-music clubland?

- Economics. Dance music folk have a huge sense of self-entitlement and want everything but the kitchen sink for free. Sometimes that can't be done. And if it is, you gotta earn it. Posting on the board or being a DJ whore doesn't cut it. A club is a business after all.

- Fracturing. Trance kids hate house. House kids hate trance. Techno kids hate house and trance. Breaks hits hate everything, even breaks. They're a contentious lot.

- DJ worship. The DJ is part of the party, not the party.

- Realizing, that in a positive way, Miami is it's own planet.

DJ Worship-- For god's sake what is wrong with going out to see a dj that you have enjoyed before or going out to see some talent you heard/read is great.. I believe some of the best parties I've been to have been because of the dj playing. Sure, I have a great time if the company I am keeping is fun. However, I also have been to a club with my bf alone and as long as the music's good we don't care who else is there or not.

I will pay to see a dj that I know I will enjoy and I might even pay for one I haven't even seen before. From my previous experience I have spent more money on a dj that I like whether it be at the bar or for my ticket. I will take a chance on a virtually unkown dj, to me, it just depends on my mood for the type of music/night it will be.

Miami is it's own planet- Thank fucking god it is! Dallas, TX, for example, which I have had the displeasure of visiting is another planet and of the scary Christian kind. I can't say from clubbing experience but I can say from the general experience, it's someplace I am always happy to leave.

I don't live in Miami but I am grateful to live close-by so I can have the chance to see some great talent and to be able to be a small part of conference every year. At least we aren't the average clubgoers and we know where to go and how to have a good time because we have choices. 8)

[Guest coach]

I can't believe we've had 8 pages of posts and nobody has brought up the tourism industry (or maybe they did and I missed it). I mean, Miami, and Miami Beach more specifically, has always been built on the tourist industry. Look at the history over the past 90-100 years. When tourism slacks, so does the Miami economy.

Now, once we get all these condos up and running, assuming they even manage to sell out, we shall have to see how that shakes out. With more population, that will give us more of a locals economy, so maybe we will be less dependent on the tourists. Or, maybe those condo owners will all be homebodies. Those of you in the real estate business can help us out by making sure your customers are all edm music fans.

In any case, a lot is going to change in the next couple of years due to this building boom.

In another any case, looking into what will bring back the tourists that we have lost would also be a way to help the scene. How many clubs are members of the GMCVB, for example?

[Guest Marina22]

Good point Coach, but for the ignorant here what is the GMCVB? When I was at Mansion a week ago, it did seem that there was alot of tourists there. :-\ Maybe it was my imagination, the holiday weekend, or the fact that there wasn't that many people dancing. I heard a couple say how it was ridiculous that the club was mostly VIP, so I assume they had never been before.. As much as we may not like tourists, we have to accept the fact that they do aid in our clubbing world more than we think on a weekly basis. I wonder which club has the most tourist-based clientele? I dare say Mansion or Nikki Beach..

[Guest pod]

What I mean by DJ Worship is believing that the DJ is the center of the universe. He's not. The club as a universe is at best a decentralized mass of stars. The best clubs in the world realize this and don't bet the farm on one element. Our Big Two, Space and Mansion, realize this and don't make the DJ the absolute center of attention. They spend time and money on decòr, visual elements, that sort of thing. Don't get me wrong, I appreciate DJ's skill and all, but the cult has got to go.

I can remember way back when, when the DJ booth was actually off to the side in most clubs. You could see him or her, and he or she could see out, but it was off to the side. If you remember the old Salvation, this was exactly how it was. Probably where the toner cartridges are now. Even Junior's booth at the old Twilo was off to the side.

Fracturing. More parties are cool, yes. What I mean is the fracturing of the crowd. People can't be stuck on one thing, like I've said. Live a little, take the 2007 Pod Challenge. Oh, and keep me in the loop on that, I can wedge it into my schedule at some point.

[Guest swank]

Good point Coach, but for the ignorant here what is the GMCVB? When I was at Mansion a week ago, it did seem that there was alot of tourists there. :-\ Maybe it was my imagination, the holiday weekend, or the fact that there wasn't that many people dancing. I heard a couple say how it was ridiculous that the club was mostly VIP, so I assume they had never been before.. As much as we may not like tourists, we have to accept the fact that they do aid in our clubbing world more than we think on a weekly basis. I wonder which club has the most tourist-based clientele? I dare say Mansion or Nikki Beach..

Greater Miami Convention & Visitors Bureau

And yes...people are tired of the VIP thing where you are made to feel like a lower form of life if you are not in the VIP section. You are made to feel like you are almost in a different club. It's terrible and needs to be addressed.

[240turbo]

I've said it before a million times and I'll say it again for those that never saw my posts.

You have 4 hip hop radio stations and no dance station.

What are the youth listening to and have been for the past 4 years? Hip hop!! So it's only fitting that when they go to the club that's all they want to hear.

As cheesy as 93.1 used to be, it was an avenue to expose the masses and fresh young blood to EDM. Now it's gone.

So don't be surprised when you go to a club and see drugged up 40 year olds jamming to EDM. That generation is getting older and will not party forever.

Then what? Like JustDade says It's bye bye dance....