How Muslim Countries View America

[dusted]

Originally posted by breaksny

If anyone wants 2 discuss this or any other political issue with me in a civilized manner feel free to pm me.

Btw, comparing me to Stalin I take as the equivalent as being called anti-semitic. My Dad's Lithuanian and anyone who knows his/her history would understand why I find that remark offensive. Should I compare your thinking to Hitler now?

I can talk to moderates on these issues like crobra, sassa, bigpop, and nycmuzik among others. I don't think any of them are nearly as radical in their views as I am, and would probably be as critical of palestinian militant groups and the PA itself as you all are. But they have balanced viewpoints. They can present an argument for the other side that I can listen to and learn from b/c its rational, it has a point to it and its not impulsively defensive as those of you like malone, tribal, and dusted make. Maybe it's just a few of you on this board, I dunno. You seem historical fossils trapped in time by your paranoid beliefs and the belief that b/c jews suffered through the holocaust and 1000s of years of persecution in europe, that puts their state beyond reproach. Until 100 odd years ago, there wasn't this conflict between Jews and Moslem for the most part. Blame the Christians for your problems, I dunno. To this day, they're inflicted far more suffering on Jews from an historical standpoint than Moslems ever have.

I even try to see tribal as a moderate, but I can't given the fact that he questions how key the creation of a palestinian state is to the process of peacemaking. I never said it was a panacea, but its a vital building block, actually a keystone to peace. And the conspiracy theories all of you have, that draw on these allusions to 1947 or the 6 day war seem to have no relevance to the basic question here which is how to make peace, or to better understand the conflict in its entirety. They also seem to ignore the fact that the PA has compromised, 14 years ago actually, and that it's under no foreign countries thumb. I hate it as an institution b/c I think it's authoritarian, corrupt and at times autocratic. I also know for a fact that it's main purpose is to serve Israeli security interests, often at the price of palestinian democracy, economic development, and human rights. I agree with tribal that it'd be nice if the moderate opposition were in power in the territories, but they're not. The 2 most powerful and popular oranizations are fatah and hamas, each with a quarter or so of the population supporting them. Building democracy there will take time. I just don't think Israel gives a damn about that process, otherwise they wouldn'tve dragged Oslo out for so long, or more fundamentally have insisted on such an one-sided agreement in the 1st place.

Saying sharon is like milosevic, however, really isn't a stretch of the truth. But saying I only listen to those who agree with me is. My belief basically is the views you on the right on this thread (a few of you anyway) are espousing are zionist and zionism is racism as far I'm concerned. Having a homeland for a given cultural or religious group doesn't make it the most special country in the world, able to do whatever it wants on the international stage as Israel seems to think it can, especially now. Oslo failed b/c of its basic conception that a palestinian state was only possible if israeli security was the most important component in the agreement that allowed for the creation of said state. Even if such emphasis would make said state unviable b/c the nature and definition of the term "security" would be defined solely by Israel. The palestinians wouldn't get a state or peace unless they agreed to this israeli (and basically american as well) definition of the term security. Camp David failed b/c of timing and b/c Israel's starting point for negotiations was 1967, not 1948 as it was for the Palestinians. The palestinians rightly view the great historical compromise they've made as recognizing israel's right to exist peacefully and giving up over 3/4 of their homeland. But that was israel's starting point for negotiations. Those 2 views can't coexist since they're basically mutually exclusive. That's why I say Israel's maximum redlines don't meet the minimum needs of the of the Palestinians. There's alot more to it than that, such as the fact that Oslo put the PA effectively under Israel's thumb from a legal standpoint, b/c it removed the element of outside mediation or other intervention if a conflict were to arise over principles in the framework agreement or its implementation. Basically the Palestinians had no recourse to appeal to a 3rd party if they felt wronged, they could only deal with a far more powerful country bilaterally. As you on the right will point out, there isn't even palestinian country. Said more powerful country obviously hasn't had their best interests at heart, under governments of the left or right...things just seem to completely stall under rightist israeli governments. Such a peace is called a hegemonic peace, since from a bp (balance of power) standpoint, the parties are unequal, unlike the nature of Israel's agreements with Egypt and Jordan, both of which have the full trappings of a state and therefore be able to bring to bear sufficient leverage on their partner in a peace process to make for an equitable, if not equal, agreement. The same cannot be said for the Palestinians to this day. Hence the hegemonic nature of the agreement, the instability it created, and its failure.

This is all besides the fact that Israel as a society discriminates across the board against its Palestinian minority. Arabs get respresentation in the legislature but have never even been included in a any government. And that's just the tip of the iceberg of basic institutions in Israeli society and government that are racist...Sharon is far worse, he proved as much in Lebanon and he's proving it again now. As far as his popularity goes, ya he was elected, b/c the left and the peace camp gave up or changed their views after the 2nd intifdada started and the country's arab minority boycotted the election almost entirely. Regardless of that fact, read the polls dude sharon has minority support now...he trails netanyahu by 15 points or more. And the numbers will only go down as this continues. I don't need 2 b an expert on Israeli politics to see that his days in office are numbered.

Anyway, as I said pm me if you wanna discuss this in a civilized manner. I feel bad for nycmuzik, he tried to start a dialogue and it got coopted by the far right on the board. It was inevitable I suppose. I don't consider myself blameless in that regard either, but I am openminded to relevant discussion...I just think some of you are so close-minded you don't listen and will never learn. You're opponents of peace b/c the only peace you want is one that denies freedom to your neighbors, who btw are you kinfolk. That's the saddest part of all, this war is between extended members of the same family.

This long winded diatribe is completely incoherent.

And you STILL didn't answer my question.

Oh and why is it ok to have Islamic countries with Islamic law, but its not ok to have a Jewish country, with Jewish law.

How many non- muslims are allowed into Mecca?

Why do these PA Arabs want to live in Israel with a bunch of Jews who they hate anyway? Answer that.

[malone]

"Btw, comparing me to Stalin I take as the equivalent as being called anti-semitic. My Dad's Lithuanian and anyone who knows his/her history would understand why I find that remark offensive. Should I compare your thinking to Hitler now? "

Firstly, I must point out that comparing you to Stalin was not intended as a comparison of your views but of you manner. And clearly you have a pronounced habit of smearing your opponents, and then dismissing them as irrelevant. However, your most recent post may represent a move away from such a practice, we shall see. For the moment you'll simple refer to us as the "far right" or extremists. You presumably will be the "far left", also refered to as the "moderate".

Now you tell us that you know of Israeli public opinion because of opinion polls. Which is to say the views of several hundred will be considered to represent the thinking of several million. The only poll that counts put Sharon in office. And even if you are correct and Netanyahu is actually 15 points aheah right now, so what? He has positioned himself as a staunch critic of Sharon and being even tougher. Further to right, you might say. As to the second class nature of the treatment of Israeli Arabs because they never sat in government there, I wonder when was the last time a Jew sat in an Arab government. For that matter, when was the last time a Jew or Arab got to vote in an election in an Arab country. The last time an Arab voted in the region was probably the last time they voted in Israel.

[breaksny]

Isn't it true that Hitlet was christian? Isn't it true that the crusaders killed more jews, moslems, and other christians than Saladin did? Isn't it true that the Ottomans allowed Jews to freely practice their religion throughout their empire for 100s of years? Isn't it true that Jews as well as christians prospered in Spain under Moslem occupation? Isn't it true more palestinians have been killed in the last 30 years than israelis, by far? Isn't it true the largest influx of jews to Israel since @ least the 60s came from the USSR, not a Moslem country? It's not a lie @ all. And the only joke I see is you denying the reality of that fact or the truth in my post. I was correct, I had a point, and I always answer your questions, when they're even relevant to the discussion. I call you racist b/c that's what you are...the points you make, the questions you raise, the very assumptions you bring to this discussion basically treat the palestinians as second class human beings. It's offensive. I dunno who taught you to hate, but don't blame me for it. You seriously don't see the other side and you're too thickheaded to get that fact.

As far as Israeli law being jewish, it's not even clear to me most jews want that. The other major political dispute under barak's administration was his attempt to introduce a secular constitution that takes all this legal power out of the hands of the orthodox far right. It destroyed his government. But that's not even what I'm talking about, I'm criticizing the blatant institutionalized racism against palestinian israelis in israel proper, something that exists b/c the state's guiding ideology is zionism. It's used and executed in a manner that treats palestinian israelis as second class citizens in their own country. What are you talking about Arabs living in the territories wanting to live in Israel anyway? They wanna work there sure, and in many cases live there probably b/c the government is less corrupt and the standard of living is higher. The PA's economy is essentially dependent on trade and other links with Israel anyway, largely a legacy of the occupation, and in the last several years to bad PA governance and corruption. It doesn't mean things are all honky dorey in Israel proper for them however. As far as your reference to Mecca, what's your point? That's a different country that has nothing to do with this discussion. It's moslem law, if they wanna have moslem law, that's their sovereign prerogative. Israel is very split between its religious and secular populations, among jews, not to mention their arab minority so the situation is quite different. This is why I don't answer your questions, they're irrelevant. I don't see any point or light that would be shed by answering them.

And btw, again you distort my views. You think they agree with me? Some of these people are israeli, most of them are not leftist as I am, and none of them are racist like you are. I mean really I can't even begin to list the ways your prejudiced. You likewise clearly have no conception for the other side of the conflict. 30 palestinians killed today by this savage war. And you defend that. It's inhuman. And get over yourself accusing me of issuing diatribes. You wouldn't know the meaning of the word civilized if it defined itself to you.

[dusted]

Originally posted by breaksny

If anyone wants 2 discuss this or any other political issue with me in a civilized manner feel free to pm me.

Btw, comparing me to Stalin I take as the equivalent as being called anti-semitic. My Dad's Lithuanian and anyone who knows his/her history would understand why I find that remark offensive. Should I compare your thinking to Hitler now?

I can talk to moderates on these issues like crobra, sassa, bigpop, and nycmuzik among others. I don't think any of them are nearly as radical in their views as I am, and would probably be as critical of palestinian militant groups and the PA itself as you all are. But they have balanced viewpoints. They can present an argument for the other side that I can listen to and learn from b/c its rational, it has a point to it and its not impulsively defensive as those of you like malone, tribal, and dusted make. Maybe it's just a few of you on this board, I dunno. You seem historical fossils trapped in time by your paranoid beliefs and the belief that b/c jews suffered through the holocaust and 1000s of years of persecution in europe, that puts their state beyond reproach. Until 100 odd years ago, there wasn't this conflict between Jews and Moslem for the most part. Blame the Christians for your problems, I dunno. To this day, they're inflicted far more suffering on Jews from an historical standpoint than Moslems ever have.

I even try to see tribal as a moderate, but I can't given the fact that he questions how key the creation of a palestinian state is to the process of peacemaking. I never said it was a panacea, but its a vital building block, actually a keystone to peace. And the conspiracy theories all of you have, that draw on these allusions to 1947 or the 6 day war seem to have no relevance to the basic question here which is how to make peace, or to better understand the conflict in its entirety. They also seem to ignore the fact that the PA has compromised, 14 years ago actually, and that it's under no foreign countries thumb. I hate it as an institution b/c I think it's authoritarian, corrupt and at times autocratic. I also know for a fact that it's main purpose is to serve Israeli security interests, often at the price of palestinian democracy, economic development, and human rights. I agree with tribal that it'd be nice if the moderate opposition were in power in the territories, but they're not. The 2 most powerful and popular oranizations are fatah and hamas, each with a quarter or so of the population supporting them. Building democracy there will take time. I just don't think Israel gives a damn about that process, otherwise they wouldn'tve dragged Oslo out for so long, or more fundamentally have insisted on such an one-sided agreement in the 1st place.

Saying sharon is like milosevic, however, really isn't a stretch of the truth. But saying I only listen to those who agree with me is. My belief basically is the views you on the right on this thread (a few of you anyway) are espousing are zionist and zionism is racism as far I'm concerned. Having a homeland for a given cultural or religious group doesn't make it the most special country in the world, able to do whatever it wants on the international stage as Israel seems to think it can, especially now. Oslo failed b/c of its basic conception that a palestinian state was only possible if israeli security was the most important component in the agreement that allowed for the creation of said state. Even if such emphasis would make said state unviable b/c the nature and definition of the term "security" would be defined solely by Israel. The palestinians wouldn't get a state or peace unless they agreed to this israeli (and basically american as well) definition of the term security. Camp David failed b/c of timing and b/c Israel's starting point for negotiations was 1967, not 1948 as it was for the Palestinians. The palestinians rightly view the great historical compromise they've made as recognizing israel's right to exist peacefully and giving up over 3/4 of their homeland. But that was israel's starting point for negotiations. Those 2 views can't coexist since they're basically mutually exclusive. That's why I say Israel's maximum redlines don't meet the minimum needs of the of the Palestinians. There's alot more to it than that, such as the fact that Oslo put the PA effectively under Israel's thumb from a legal standpoint, b/c it removed the element of outside mediation or other intervention if a conflict were to arise over principles in the framework agreement or its implementation. Basically the Palestinians had no recourse to appeal to a 3rd party if they felt wronged, they could only deal with a far more powerful country bilaterally. As you on the right will point out, there isn't even palestinian country. Said more powerful country obviously hasn't had their best interests at heart, under governments of the left or right...things just seem to completely stall under rightist israeli governments. Such a peace is called a hegemonic peace, since from a bp (balance of power) standpoint, the parties are unequal, unlike the nature of Israel's agreements with Egypt and Jordan, both of which have the full trappings of a state and therefore be able to bring to bear sufficient leverage on their partner in a peace process to make for an equitable, if not equal, agreement. The same cannot be said for the Palestinians to this day. Hence the hegemonic nature of the agreement, the instability it created, and its failure.

This is all besides the fact that Israel as a society discriminates across the board against its Palestinian minority. Arabs get respresentation in the legislature but have never even been included in a any government. And that's just the tip of the iceberg of basic institutions in Israeli society and government that are racist...Sharon is far worse, he proved as much in Lebanon and he's proving it again now. As far as his popularity goes, ya he was elected, b/c the left and the peace camp gave up or changed their views after the 2nd intifdada started and the country's arab minority boycotted the election almost entirely. Regardless of that fact, read the polls dude sharon has minority support now...he trails netanyahu by 15 points or more. And the numbers will only go down as this continues. I don't need 2 b an expert on Israeli politics to see that his days in office are numbered.

Anyway, as I said pm me if you wanna discuss this in a civilized manner. I feel bad for nycmuzik, he tried to start a dialogue and it got coopted by the far right on the board. It was inevitable I suppose. I don't consider myself blameless in that regard either, but I am openminded to relevant discussion...I just think some of you are so close-minded you don't listen and will never learn. You're opponents of peace b/c the only peace you want is one that denies freedom to your neighbors, who btw are you kinfolk. That's the saddest part of all, this war is between extended members of the same family.

This long winded diatribe is completely incoherent.

And you STILL didn't answer my question.

Oh and why is it ok to have Islamic countries with Islamic law, but its not ok to have a Jewish country, with Jewish law.

How many non- muslims are allowed into Mecca?

Why do these PA Arabs want to live in Israel with a bunch of Jews who they hate anyway? Answer that.

[tribal]

woa woa, hold on.

i just dont understand this concept of double standards against israelis. they dont let arabs vote in their decisions? they dont let palst return to their former homes? why?

lets take a look here. as dusted said before, which arab govt does what you expect israelis to do? i think people have illusions as to what israel is and should be. for one thing, i dont think it should be a merged entity of israeli-palst population, with one govt. thats absolutely the stupidest thing ive ever heard. this is a pipe dream, just look at whats going on at the ground currently. so israelis should open up their borders, allow a large influx of arabs to come in and alter demographics entirely, displacing any levels of security. not only stupid, but a deadly mistake for israelis. as to the issues of palst having to deal fairly with israelis. do you really consider palst to be at the same level of negotiations as israelis? dont forget why they lost those areas in the first place. dont forget who started the war. dont forget where the palst are today, hardly in a position to demand all their needs be met, thats why its called a compromise, israelis were willing to compromise, palst didnt.

its true that israel has committed many crimes in the territories, and i think they should withdraw to pre 67 borders, ala King Fahd suggestion. even if they do that, i really really doubt that they will recieve any significant security arrangements for long term future.

[dusted]

Breaksny you have zero knowledge of history. Why not actually read something that goes beyond the Oslo accords and 1967?

Your rantings are very vague and not backed up by facts.

What "compromise" are you referring to by the Palestinians?

How can you say that the Jews never had problems with the Muslims? The Jews were only tolerated by them, had to pay special taxes, and had to subjugate themselves to the Muslims. When it became apparent that the Jews might get their own state, the Muslims couldn't accept it, as the excerpt below shows.

____________________________________________________

In 1917 (The British were in control of the at this time.) the British passed a law known as the Balfour Declaration that approved of an independent Jewish state in the area known as Palestine. The Jewish presence increased over the years and this brought modern civilization to the area. Arabs began flocking to the district to take advantage of employment opportunities and a higher standard of life that the modern settlements facilitated. Soon tempers flared and the Arabs began getting nervous that they were going to be outnumbered by Jews in this tiny portion of the predominately Arab world. The local Arabs wanted an independent state here too. The Arabs began marching, rioting and attacking Jewish settlements demanding that the Jews leave and stop immigrating to the region. "Fearful that increased Jewish immigration to Palestine would damage Arab standing in the area, the mufti engineered the bloody riots against Jewish settlement in 1929 and 1936." (http://www.wzo.org.il/home/portrait/mufti.htm)

During World War II the chief Muslim religious leader (Mufti) in Jerusalem, Haj Amin al-Husseini pledged his allegiance and support to Hitler. His nephew is better known today. His name is Yasser Arafat. World War II resulted in an increased desire for Jews to immigrate to Palestine. The British, not able to settle the disputes between Jews and Arabs released jurisdiction of the embroiled fledgling nations to the UN. The United Nations recognized that both Jews and Arabs had a legitimate claim to a homeland and partitioned the area. The Jews accepted the partition plan of the UN. and the Arabs did not. The Arabs threatened to destroy Israel on the day she announced her birth. In 1948 Israel became an independent nation. No less than 5 Arab armies attacked Israel. These armies were comprised of or supported by the following nations: Syria, Jordan, Lebanon, Egypt, Yemen, Iraq, and Saudi Arabia ( War information taken from, "Israel: The fig tree blossoms Metatron Communications © 2000).

To the world's surprise Israel not only survived the attack but became victorious. Due to this war however, many of the local Arabs were displaced from their homes. Though they were told to evacuate Israel by their mother lands, Those same nations then refused to house them after they lost their homes in the war they initiated. These displaced people were placed in camps and kept there as political pawns by the enemies of Israel. Their descendants are known today as the Palestinians.

Arabs continued to attack Israel on and off over the years. A massive attack was formed in 1967. By May 17th, the troops of seven Arab nations gathered around Israel. Not long after a naval blockade by Egypt in the Gulf of Aquaba the Israeli's pre-emptively attacked. This war only lasted 6 days because Israel caught her enemies jet fighters while they were still on the ground. She annihilated the air forces of Egypt, Syria, Jordan and Iraq. During this war Israel took what is known today as the Golan Heights, The West Bank, the Gaza Strip and Jerusalem. Israel said she would keep Jerusalem but would return the West Bank and the Gaza Strip as soon as the Palestinians were serious about peace.

Israel has fought war on and off within her boarders and without ever since. The Palestinians are still the pawns of Israel's enemies and are still enemies themselves within her midst.

Today the violence in Israel is nothing new. The Arabs still want what they wanted in 1948 and 1967. They want control of Israel and they won't stop fighting until they get it.

[malone]

"You're opponents of peace b/c the only peace you want is one that denies freedom to your neighbors, who btw are you kinfolk. That's the saddest part of all, this war is between extended members of the same family."

Why do you continue to presume that those of us who do not share your views must be Jewish. I'm not. Has Dusted indicated so in any posts? Not as far as I can tell. Are we to presume that you are an Arab. After all it would certainly help explain your views. Now to the other little smear about our being opponents of peace, this can be dismissed as a fudge, once again distorting our positions so as to make your views appear so reasonable. Presumably you, on the other hand, are a staunch proponent of peace.

[breaksny]

Whatever.

[dusted]

Like I said before, when all else fails bring out the race card.

And why does my logical fact-based view on Israel lead people to believe that I must be Jewish?

Only a racist bigot would presume to know a persons race or nationality based on their opinions.

[dusted]

I want to know: can Breaksny point out anything incorrect in the excerpt that I posted.

[midiman]

Originally posted by dusted

"Until 100 odd years ago, there wasn't this conflict between Jews and Moslem for the most part. Blame the Christians for your problems, I dunno. To this day, they're inflicted far more suffering on Jews from an historical standpoint than Moslems ever have. "

That is an absolute lie.

how so? Oh yeah the Nazi's were muslim right. If you look back at history, the golden Age of Judaism in terms of art and science occured within the borders of the Islamic Empire.

[dusted]

The problem with these left wing people is that the facts are not on their side, therefore they can only argue with their emotions, and by taking the supposed moral high ground. I'm better than you, because I feel for people. They don't think , they feel .

As far as Hitler being a Christian, so what? He was a Socialist. Hence the national socialist party

So I guess he would have more in common with Breaksny.

[midiman]

I love the way you guys managed to simply ingore my thread about what the Israeli soldiers are doing in Gaza and the West bank...here, let me post it again so you can read it.

Israeli troops have been shooting and killing Palestinian ambulence drivers who are trying to help wounded people. They are shooting the elederly and letting them bleed to death. They are shooting Palestinians and then posing for pictures with the dead bodies.They are killing pregnant women trying to get to the hospitals. They even shot and killed a United Nations relief worker who was driving in a clearly marked U.N. van. They have been setting fire to wheat fields causing starving people to not be able to grow food. They are not letting supplies in and are bulldozing houses. But this is all in defense huh. Sounds more like genocide to me.

Doesn't surpise me that Israeli soldiers on the front line are starting to refuse serving in the army after what they have been told to do.

[dusted]

Originally posted by midiman

how so? Oh yeah the Nazi's were muslim right. If you look back at history, the golden Age of Judaism in terms of art and science occured within the borders of the Islamic Empire.

It has nothing to do with the nazis.

Jews were subjugated to Muslims, as were Christians.

If you're going to put your 2 cents in, please make it something intelligent.

[dusted]

Originally posted by midiman

I love the way you guys managed to simply ingore my thread about what the Israeli soldiers are doing in Gaza and the West bank...here, let me post it again so you can read it.

Israeli troops have been shooting and killing Palestinian ambulence drivers who are trying to help wounded people. They are shooting the elederly and letting them bleed to death. They are shooting Palestinians and then posing for pictures with the dead bodies.They are killing pregnant women trying to get to the hospitals. They even shot and killed a United Nations relief worker who was driving in a clearly marked U.N. van. They have been setting fire to wheat fields causing starving people to not be able to grow food. They are not letting supplies in and are bulldozing houses. But this is all in defense huh. Sounds more like genocide to me.

Doesn't surpise me that Israeli soldiers on the front line are starting to refuse serving in the army after what they have been told to do.

Give me some factual evidence, instead of just making statements.

[tribal]

midiman, no one is ignoring your claims about israeli misdeeds in the territories, look at the thread regarding an israeli paratrooper i posted earlier. the fact that you fail to understand and take into your thinking is that israelis arent preventing ambulances from moving, not because israelis are evil or want palst to die, but because they learn from the past. many times before, palst used ambulances to carry militants, arms and explosives across checkpoints. can you blame the israelis for searching every vehicle?

[dusted]

midiman, no one is ignoring your claims about israeli misdeeds in the territories, look at the thread regarding an israeli paratrooper i posted earlier. the fact that you fail to understand and take into your thinking is that israelis arent preventing ambulances from moving, not because israelis are evil or want palst to die, but because they learn from the past. many times before, palst used ambulances to carry militants, arms and explosives across checkpoints. can you blame the israelis for searching every vehicle?

__________________

Listen, the guy is hopelessly naive. He refuses to believe that these people will stoop to any level to achieve their ends. That includes sending children to do their dirty work, using ambulances to haul arms, etc. Any group that would encourage people to become suicide bombers, by promising them immediate entrance to heaven, would stoop to anything.

[kramadas]

Roadrunner, sorry but you have no idea what you're talking about. The Tamil TIGERS (LTTE) are SRI LANKAN tamils who want an independent state. At one point in time, India actually went in to try help the Sri lankan army but what happened...the Indian prime minister at the time was assassinated by the LTTE.

I'm still waiting to hear more about the so called "Indian terrorists"!

Originally posted by roadrunner

Some things I'd like to clear up:

Whoever-said-there's-no-terrorists-in-India:

They're called Tamils. They claim Sri Lanka is theirs. They are poorly educated and commit suicide bombings often. They recently signed a peace treaty but it probably won't last long, because they have been at war for many years.

Whoever-pointed-to-the-opinionjournal.com:

There's a reason the opinionjournal.com site is free and wsj.com is a pay site. Opinionjournal.com is propaganda. WSJ.com is real news.

Whoever-told-the-chickens-and-rape-story:

This reminds me of the thing I hated most about that movie Traffic. "Oh, well, if the facts don't exactly add up, let's scare 'em with stories about their daughters gettin' raped by colored folk." Fuck you. The only person who's gonna rape your daughter is a sick fucking rapist.

Whoever-was-talikng-shit-to-tOnythelOver:

You got smoked. He isn't happy with the state of his country, and he's STILL going to fight for it. What have you done? Made an ass of yourself.

This is not religious or racial. It's fucking economic. How many of the top 10 richest men in the world are Arabic? I don't know, but I'd wager at least half. The thing they have in common with their rich American counterparts is this: NEITHER WANTS TO GIVE SHIT OF THEIR MONEY TO THEIR POOR COUNTRYMEN. It's greed, pure and simple.

The Middle East doesn't have tourist destinations? How many people go to Mecca each year? Millions and millions.

Nike can't make sneakers in America? How come fucking New Balance can?

Why is gas in America 2 and 3 times cheaper than it is in Europe? Because America dictates the prices that it pays. How? By installing puppet regimes, covertly and overtly. Wouldn't you get a little pissed if someone came in and said they would only give you half of what you're asked for your only natural resource?

And what has America done with it's great natural resources? Squandered them. The greatest farmland on earth, and what do we do with it? We piss it away so a man can't even make a decent living farming anymore. Government subsidies pay for farmers NOT to farm.

The last election proved we barely live in a democracy anymore. I think anyone with half a brain IS making plans to leave the country. This is definitely not the same ountry as WW2, or even the sixties when people protested what was obviously unfair.

[malone]

breaksny

Explain the thinking that allows you to claim you always answered Dusted's questions, even when they were not relevant ,with the comment two paragraphs later : "this is why I don't answer your questions, they are not relevant". Geez! You cite a litany of abuses commited from the crusades to the present and opt for some formula of mathematical disparity to show that one side has suffered more than the other. You tell Dusted that reference to Meca is not relevant to the discussion ( are you the moderator now ? ), but you yourself refer to Russia ,Saladin, the Ottomans, Hitler et al. Come on! Talk about incoherent.

[dusted]

Can anyone tell me why the other Arab nations haven't taken in these refugees?

[midiman]

Israeli's shoot U.N. Ambulence Driver

UNITED NATIONS (CNN) -- U.N. Secretary-General Kofi Annan appealed to the Israeli government Thursday to investigate the killing of a U.N. staff member by Israeli soldiers.

The staff member, a guard for the United Nations Relief and Works Agency for Palestine Refugees in the Near East, or UNRWA, was en route to a West Bank refugee camp when the U.N. ambulance in which he was riding was hit by Israeli gunfire.

"This tragedy serves as a graphic reminder of the need for the parties to respect humanitarian law and provide security for all civilians, including the staff of international and non-governmental organizations active in the region," Annan said in a written statement.

The Israel Defense Forces said it had seen the report about the incident, but had no immediate comment about it.

The guard, identified as Kamal Hamdan, 40, is the first U.N. staff member to be killed in the occupied territories since the current intifada began in September 2000, the U.N. said. Hamdan had worked for UNRWA for 15 years and leaves behind his wife and five children, the agency said.

It said Israeli soldiers fired several bullets at the "clearly marked, well-lit U.N. ambulance that also had a U.N. flag mounted on it." Hamdan died from a single gunshot that struck him in the back and penetrated his heart, killing him instantly.

The guard and a U.N. medical team were returning from a hospital after transporting a wounded resident from the Tulkarem camp in the northern West Bank, UNRWA said.

The resident died en route to the hospital after an Israeli armored vehicle and tank stopped the ambulance at the camp entrance and detained it for about 20 minutes, the agency said.

The UNRWA has been in operation since 1950, created to take care of the roughly 3.8 million Palestinian refugees in the occupied territories and neighboring countries.

Israeli Soldier Refuse to Serve based on immoral commands

Published on Tuesday, January 29, 2002 in the International Herald Tribune

60 Israeli Veterans Refuse to Serve

Petition by Reservists Condemns West Bank and Gaza Occupation

by Lee Hockstader

JERUSALEM - More than 60 Israeli Army reservists, half officers and all of them combat veterans, have publicly refused to continue serving in the West Bank and Gaza Strip on the ground that Israeli occupation forces there are abusing and humiliating Palestinians.

"We will no longer fight beyond the Green Line for the purpose of occupying, deporting, destroying, blockading, killing, starving and humiliating an entire people," declared the petition signed by the reservists and published in Israel's best-selling daily newspaper, Yedioth Ahronoth.

Over the years there have been instances of eligible Israelis declining to serve in the army at all, or refusing to serve in certain places for reasons of conscience or politics. What makes the current case unusual is that so many combat reservists, both soldiers and officers, have come forward publicly at one time.

Moreover, the organizers of the petition, a pair of reserve lieutenants in their 20s who have served previous stints in the Israeli-occupied territories, say their goal is to collect 500 signatures and launch a broad social campaign.

"We all have limits," Reserve Lieutenant David Zonshein, 28, a software engineer and one of the two men who drafted the petition, told Yedioth. He said that although "you can be the best officer," suddenly, "you are asked to do things that should not be asked of you, to shoot people, to stop ambulances, to destroy houses in which you don't know if there are people living."

Lieutenant Zonshein, who wrote the petition with Reserve Lieutenant Yaniv Itzkovich, 26, a university teaching assistant, declined to speak with foreign correspondents. But along with several other signatories of the petition, they told Yedioth about incidents in which Israeli troops had opened fire on Palestinian children and other civilians who posed no apparent danger to their lives.

In a statement, the Israeli Army said: "To serve in the Israeli Defense Forces is obligatory under the law and there is no place for reserve soldiers to choose what jobs they want and what jobs they don't want. The writers of the petition don't represent the soldiers and officers of the reserve who understand their mission and are working days and nights toward the security of the state of Israel and peace for its citizens."

Most Israeli men are required to serve as army reservists until they are 45 years old, typically spending a few weeks to a month or more each year away from their families and civilian jobs.

Raanan Gissin, spokesman for Prime Minister Ariel Sharon, acknowledged that allegations of abuse by the army do happen and should be investigated, but he dismissed the petition and refusals to serve in the army as a "marginal phenomenon."

The petition "undermines the basic tenet of Israeli democracy," he said. "You can't have a government in which people can decide" they will bomb "this target but not that target. You abide by the rule of the majority and the majority has decided this is the government and this is its policy."

Since the current Palestinian armed uprising erupted in September 2000, more than 500 Israelis have refused to serve in the Israeli occupied territories, including pacifists and veterans, recruits and reservists, according to such objectors.

Of that number, about 40 have been sentenced to prison terms that are generally brief, including 12 reserve officers. Others have been ignored or given army jobs inside Israel.

Ram Rahat, 45, a former combat soldier who refused to serve during Israel's invasion of Lebanon in 1982, said the current refusals mirror patterns that emerged in previous conflicts. He said it showed that people who have gone through army reserve duty "a couple of times, going through the territories and seeing the reality of what's going on there, are starting to get fed up with it." Mr. Rahat, an accountant, added, "It's exactly what happened in the first intifada as well. As more and more people did reserve duty and came back for their second and third tours, there were more and more cases of refusal."

more rescue workers shot amongst others

18 Palestinians killed in IDF raids; army in Tul Karm

By Jalal Bana, Amos Harel and Amira Hass, Ha'aretz Correspondents, and agencies

Smoke rising above Gaza City following IDF strikes Thursday morning.

(Photo: Reuters)

IDF troops preparing for the Tul Karm raid in the West Bank on Wednesday night.

(Photo: Reuters)

Eighteen Palestinians were killed and 40 wounded Thursday after large numbers of IDF troops moved into the West Bank city of Tul Karm and its environs overnight Wednesday, and IAF helicopters and warplanes struck PA targets in the Gaza Strip and West Bank throughout the day.

In line with a recent security cabinet decision to intensify the army's operations in the territories, troops from the Nahal and Golani brigades provided support for the Armored Corps, who took control of parts of the city and the two nearby refugee camps of Tul Karm and Nur A-Shams in a pre-dawn incursion.

Electricity was cut off from the entire city as heavy fighting was reported around the refugee camps. Palestinians reported at least 20 people injured in the fighting.

People were confined to their homes as troops carried out house-to-house searches for terrorist suspects. The troops then took up positions in the city and the two camps, Army Radio reported. The roads have been taken over and the Nur A-Shams camp is under almost total IDF control, the radio said, adding that the IDF also seized control of the house belonging to the head of the Tanzim organization in Nur A-Shams.

The IDF commander of the Tul Karm operation, Yair Golan, told Israel Radio his troops would stay up to two days in the area, to "arrest wanted men and people responsible for terror attacks."

Thirteen Palestinians were killed during the incursions in the Tul Karm area. Munhad Abu Halel, a member of the Fatah military wing, Hosni Naif, and Tarek Abu Jimos were also killed in Tul Karm. Five armed Palestinians were killed in the fighting, doctors said, and Palestinian sources said that two ambulance workers, on separate ambulances, were killed by IDF gunfire on Thursday night. One was identified as Kamel Salem, an UNRO nurse and the second was identified as Ibrahim Assad, a Red Crescent ambulance driver.

The two were on their way to treat wounded individuals in Tul Karm. In the same incidents, an addtional nurse and docter were wounded, as were two other Palestinian rescue workers.

Four more Palestinians were killed by IDF gunfire in Tul Karm Thursday night.

A senior Islamic Jihad activist was killed by IDF troops close to the West Bank city of Jenin, in what Palestinians said was an assassination. They said IDF soldiers killed Mohammed Anani, 27, at his house in the village of Siris and arrested another man there.

Four people were killed during gunbattles with the IDF in the Gaza Strip, including one person who was killed close to the settlement of Netzarim.

Bulldozing Palestinian homes

Latest News and Events

Israeli bulldozers demolish more Palestinian homes in Jerusalem

Occupied Jerusalem - The Israeli apartheid regime continued to carry out its policy of ethnic cleansing against non-Jews by destroying Palestinian homes.

On Wednesday, Israeli army bulldozers destroyed three homes at the Beit Hanina neighborhood north of Jerusalem.

The destruction of the new homes brings to 5 the number of Arab homes that were destroyed in the past 24 hours and 25 since the beginning of the year.

Jerusalem Jewish mayor Ehud Olmert defended the war crime, saying the Zionist regime would pay no attention to international protests to that effect.

Olmert, a right-wing extremist who advocates the expulsion of non-Jews from Palestine, said he would order fresh demolitions of Arab homes in Jerusalem every week.

Israel is an apartheid state that views its non-Jewish citizens as "unwanted" for racist reasons.

For the same reason, the Israeli authorities refuse to grant building licenses to non-Jews in order to check Arab demographic growth.

Soldiers posing with dead Palestinians

aeli soldiers pose with their murdered victims for trophy photographs

Occupied Jerusalem - The Israeli Army is investigating reports that its soldiers are circulating "trophy" photographs of themselves posing next to their murdered and sometimes mutilated Palestinian victims, some of them are children.

The revelation, made by a group of Israeli soldiers this month, has heightened fears that Israeli soldiers have some instinctive criminal traits which makes them gleeful at murdering and torturing their victims often helpless victims.

Last week, a group of soldiers told a Jerusalem weekly newspaper that they and their fellow soldiers often took pocket cameras on military missions and posed for pictures next to corpses of murdered Palestinians.

The soldiers said many of the photographs were widely distributed in military units, and appearing in such pictures had become a ritualistic "badge of honour".

A unit of the Golani brigade, serving in the Gaza Strip, privately printed a book with stories about its soldiers' crimes. The front cover showed the body of a Palestinian civilian, killed five months ago.

The caption read: "Thus shall we do to the man who messes with Company B."

In another incident in the Gaza Strip, soldiers photographed a Palestinian who had infiltrated a settlement and was shot dead. A post-mortem examination showed his body had been shot at close range after death.

Yoram, 20, an armoured corps soldier, said he had seen 40 to 50 photographs of soldiers posing next to dead Palestinians.

"I remember one terrible photo of the soldiers smiling like children as they stood on the bodies with their boots, really enjoying the moment."

I can get more if you want more. The truth isn't hard to find when you look for it. Here is a picture of Israeli soldiers posing with dead Palestinians.

[midiman]

Originally posted by dusted

Can anyone tell me why the other Arab nations haven't taken in these refugees?

They have....the majority of the people living in Jordan are Palestinian. Why should they have to though. They have a home and that's where they want to live. There is something called tradition and pride. That is their land and that is where they want to live. The surrounding Arab countries also don't have the means right now besides maybe Sausi Arabia to take in that many people. You forget that the United States has cripp;led the middle east with all its sanctions on Iraq and Libya. Nobody can trade, nobody can use the oil, there is no work, people are starving, economies are at a standstill. Things are tough enough in those countries as it is. But you don't care about that do you. All you care about is yourself. I guess all those years of being persecuted really taught you how to do it well. Kind of like the abused child who grows up to be come the abuser. This is a waste of my time. I just hope this thing get resolved in a peaceful manner soon. thank you for your time.

[dusted]

You are wrong. they certainly can absorb them. they won't.

[tribal]

midiman, whats your point of posting pics of i.soldiers taking pics of their dead enemies. the US special forces and other military groups take pics of their slain enemies as sort of a trophy of the gunman they just shot. "mess with the best, die like the rest" etc. i saw that pic you posted before, many times, all trying to show some sort of proof of israeli aggression or what not. what a load of shit. you want to match pics tit for tat explain these pics.

is it just me, or does dusted appear to be malone for some reason? just wondering.

[kramadas]

Originally posted by dusted

Give me some factual evidence, instead of just making statements.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/Story/0,2763,664123,00.html