tribal Posted March 7 Report Share Posted March 7 latin, kind of like quid pro quo.. to yourself as unto me.breaks, i enjoy having this debate with you because you are somewhat coherent and logical with your argument unlike many people here. the thing is, i really think you hold the PA in too high of an esteem. this is one area that i disagree with you on. arafat is by far no hero. neither is sharon, whom i despise just as much. there were many people during the early nineties that had this premonition of a metamorphed ex terrorist. 'oh but he changed' they would say, 'arafat is now a legit leader', but its an illusion. the combination of arafat and sharon at the helm is whats brewing the storm. if we had more moderates with more balls leading their people, perhaps people like ashrawi and some israeli moderate (am not aware of any at the moment). now regarding the eventual palst state. i have deep doubts that this state would solve attacks against israelis. say the israelis unconditionally withdraw to pre 67 borders, no checkpoints, no bufferzones, none of that. i have deep reservations that the attacks would stop. an israeli withdrawal would be seen as a major weakness and be exploited by militant groups for more attacks. remember, you are not dealing with conventional army here like Egypt and Syria. you are dealing with guerrilas, who have no formal agreement language to keep. adding to that dillemma, how would you propose the make up of this new palst state? would it be divided into wbank and gaza? thats not too rational now is it? i really dont know what to make of all this. i just want all my friends in the army over there, to come here before they are killed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigpoppanils Posted March 7 Report Share Posted March 7 tribal's rightthe creation of a sperate palestinain state would do very little to calm violence in the reason. the palestinian government has shown time and time again that it has no control over its own people Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nubreedfan Posted March 7 Report Share Posted March 7 Originally posted by thughes I can't comment on the Middle East, but in Europe I do not think a large percentage of people that the US. The stereotype (in the UK at least), tends to be of 'stupid and blindly patriotic' Americans. I think this stereotype is probably about as accurate as most sterotypes tend to be (i.e. not very). The chattering classes of Europe need to get a life. A Continent that has had 2 world wars in the last 80 years and a holocaust, has no business lecturing the US about anything. And before you get all huffy, lets discuss a little place in Europe called Bosnia. Isn't there a War Crimes trial going on in the Netherlands right now? The United States has faults, but it is without doubt, the best idea in the history of human beings. Name ONE other power that exercised so much benevolence.USA! USA! USA! LOVE IT OR LEAVE IT all you haters. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dusted Posted March 7 Report Share Posted March 7 tribal's right the creation of a sperate palestinain state would do very little to calm violence in the reason. the palestinian government has shown time and time again that it has no control over its own peopleWell you're wrong on one thing. The PA does have control. Don't you see whats going on? Yasser Arafats talking out of both sides of his mouth. These Palestinians aren't doing this all by themselves. Of course they are being backed by the PA and other hostile Arab nations. (which is basically all of them) These Arab governments are duplicitous and sneaky. None of them can be trusted. Jesus Christ, where the fuck do you think these "poor destitute peasant Palestinians" are getting all these explosives? Yasser Arafat is a liar. He says one thing in English when the media and cameras are there, and says something totally different in Arabic to his people.The complete destruction of Israel is the ultimate goal. They do not want peace. If the Jews compromise with these people, it will be just like the 30's, when they compromised their way into ghettos and concentration camps.If they give the Arabs land for peace, it will be just like Chamberlain giving Hitler Czecheslovakia. They are NOT going to recognize Israels right to exist. They say they will now, but they are full of shit. Why didn't they just recognize Israels right to exist in 1948, and avoided all this?Answer: They don't want Jews (or Christians) in Arab territory. The only way they will tolerate Jews is if they can dominate them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dusted Posted March 7 Report Share Posted March 7 The chattering classes of Europe need to get a life. A Continent that has had 2 world wars in the last 80 years and a holocaust, has no business lecturing the US about anything. And before you get all huffy, lets discuss a little place in Europe called Bosnia. Isn't there a War Crimes trial going on in the Netherlands right now? The United States has faults, but it is without doubt, the best idea in the history of human beings. Name ONE other power that exercised so much benevolence. USA! USA! USA! LOVE IT OR LEAVE IT all you haters.You are so right. Europe is just a rotting socialist continent that is rapidly turning into a festering terrorist filled shithole. They have so many Muslims invading them, due to the fact that its the goal of Islam to re-conquer all the lands that they had before, and more. Their plan is to move en masse to Europe and then breed their way into a majority, like they have already done in Marseilles. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nubreedfan Posted March 7 Report Share Posted March 7 Originally posted by dusted .You are so right. Europe is just a rotting socialist continent that is rapidly turning into a festering terrorist filled shithole. They have so many Muslims invading them, due to the fact that its the goal of Islam to re-conquer all the lands that they had before, and more. Their plan is to move en masse to Europe and then breed their way into a majority, like they have already done in Marseilles. Wow. We could really tread some dangerous ground here. I agree with your analysis 100%.Europe carries so much collective guilt, and is so worried about protecting its wealth, that in 50 years or so it will become irrelevant. Europe is suffering such low birthrates, that in 50 years, native Europeans will be significant minorities in their own nations. It is therefore my belief, that traditional European Nationalism will rise to full strength again within the next 10 years. Yugoslavia was the first example. I don't think Germany, which has a long history of militarism, will allow its nation to disintergrate at the hands of Muslim invaders. Lets see how smug the Europeans are in the next 5 -10 years. My guess is not very. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dusted Posted March 7 Report Share Posted March 7 You are correct. Its already happening, but the people are so mired in political correctness that they're afraid to say what they really think.My parents lived in France for 2 years, and sent my sister to school there. The kids in the school were always getting attacked by Arab kids. They sprayed one kid in the eyes with something to blind him and then beat him up.In Paris the Algerians roam through the shopping malls starting gang fights. They also abduct very young white girls and gang rape them. They are having a BIG problem with that.In Nice, they hang out on the promenade by the beach where the French women go topless, and ogle them and make disgusting remarks.In Paris, they have been attacking Jews left and right, when they come out of school.ALL of my parents French friends HATE these Algerians and want them the FUCK OUT.It will take a few more years of PC bullshit before people just get so fed up with it that they throw these people out. Notice how Turkey didn't get into the EU. Cause the Germans know that will only mean even more Turks in their country. (and believe me there are ALOT already, especially in Berlin)Funny how Muslims don't respect the rights of other countries. They don't like Jews in their land, but they have no qualms about invading every other countries land. Arab land for the Arabs.American land for the ArabsEuropean land for the Arabs.Asian land for the Arabs... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigpoppanils Posted March 7 Report Share Posted March 7 you guys need to get a clueseriouslyMUslims this muslims thatblame an entire race for all your problemsgo right aheadwhatever makes you feel better inside...whatever fills the hole left by not having common sense Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dusted Posted March 7 Report Share Posted March 7 "you guys need to get a clue seriously MUslims this muslims that blame an entire race for all your problems go right ahead whatever makes you feel better "Your method of argument seems to consist solely of ad-hominem attacks.How about arguing the issues for a change? Why don't you give a logical coherent argument to our posts, one that is backed by facts? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
breaksny Posted March 7 Report Share Posted March 7 You know I'm starting to wonder if you all work for Ariel Sharon's defense team in Belgium or something. What joke. He's gonna need ideologues like you to defend him when he gets charged with genocide. You're so thickheaded that you don't even see how key creating Palestine is. I've come to the conclusion that arguing with bigots like the lot of you is about as good an use of my time as watching grass grow. Don't see alot of that on sidewalk streets in the city. Sorry I can't say I mutually respect your opinion tribal. I tried, but you're really not much better than everyone else on the right on here. Ashrawi's daughter went to my high school and while she's no Hamas supporter, it's clear who she places the primary blame for this whole thing on. As would others like Said, who you inaccurately accused before of being radical. U dunno the relative militancy of Palestinian factions if u think so. The thing is you're again distorting my viewpoints, but I don't really care anymore. People like u and dusted are conservative idealists who don't see the forest for the trees. Who taught you bigots to hate anyway? Bad parenting I guess. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dusted Posted March 7 Report Share Posted March 7 Originally posted by breaksny You know I'm starting to wonder if you all work for Ariel Sharon's defense team in Belgium or something. What joke. He's gonna need ideologues like you to defend him when he gets charged with genocide. You're so thickheaded that you don't even see how key creating Palestine is. I've come to the conclusion that arguing with bigots like the lot of you is about as good an use of my time as watching grass grow. Don't see alot of that on sidewalk streets in the city. Sorry I can't say I mutually respect your opinion tribal. I tried, but you're really not much better than everyone else on the right on here. Ashrawi's daughter went to my high school and while she's no Hamas supporter, it's clear who she places the primary blame for this whole thing on. As would others like Said, who you inaccurately accused before of being radical. U dunno the relative militancy of Palestinian factions if u think so. The thing is you're again distorting my viewpoints, but I don't really care anymore. People like u and dusted are conservative idealists who don't see the forest for the trees. Who taught you bigots to hate anyway? Bad parenting I guess. More ad-hominem attacks. *yawn* Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dusted Posted March 7 Report Share Posted March 7 Breaks NY: Do you or do you not believe Israel has a right to exist? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
breaksny Posted March 7 Report Share Posted March 7 What a stupid question. My thinking you're a bigot has nothing to do with my opinion on that matter. Get with the program. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigpoppanils Posted March 7 Report Share Posted March 7 Originally posted by dusted "Your method of argument seems to consist solely of ad-hominem attacks.How about arguing the issues for a change? Why don't you give a logical coherent argument to our posts, one that is backed by facts? its the only way to make any headway with camel fuckers like yourself.even if we do present fact, you declare it fictionit makes no sense to continue this argument with you. you seem to be about as closed minded and bigoted as the taliban themselves. get a life.and ps: welcome back igloo! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
breaksny Posted March 7 Report Share Posted March 7 Couldn'tve said it any better myself. The reason it's a stupid question is I've answered that dozens of times before implicitly and explicitly. I don't give a damn about Israel, it's a fact of life, it's not going anywhere. The Jews have their state as an eternal sanctuary from persecution in the rest of the world. Good for them. The same can't be said for the Palestinians. And it's patently obvious to me cuz I do know the history of the Oslo process that Israel doesn't seem to want a binational solution. Not a viable one. I'm not gonna waste my time proving my argument anymore b/c as Big said, you all don't listen. Not really...you have an exclusivist interpretation of history and politics that those of us on the left don't. And frankly most Palestinians don't either, including the PA, most of its opposition, and most governments in the Middle East. I'm a supporter of Palestinian independence and democracy in the occupied territories and east jerusalem, which is 22% of historical palestine, in peaceful coexistence alongside Israel as a final solution for the conflict. That's the answer to your question. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dusted Posted March 7 Report Share Posted March 7 Well then maybe you can tell everyone why, in 1947, when the UN wanted an israeli state and a palestinian state, with Jerusalem being an international city, did the Arabs reject the plan?Please explain. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
malone Posted March 7 Report Share Posted March 7 My understanding of the matter is that the "palestinians" have an explicit request that the refugees from the '48 war be returned to their original homes ,together with their families. That of course would completely alter the demographics within Isreal. One does't need to be too bright to see that that in turn would lead to the destruction of that State. Hardly the stuff of a two-state solution, now is it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
malone Posted March 7 Report Share Posted March 7 Well, I would think that question could be best answered by looking at what happened afterwards. With the Arab invasion the solution was to be at hand. Why settle for the U.N. solution when in a little while there would be no Isreal. Alas, that was not to be, as evidenced by the Isreali victory in that and subsequent wars. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dusted Posted March 7 Report Share Posted March 7 Thank you for your intelligent input.The question was meant for BreaksNY, but as usual he evaded the question. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dusted Posted March 7 Report Share Posted March 7 I would also like to know, what business was the State of Israel to Egypt, Lebanon, Syria, Iraq and Jordan? They are not Palestinians. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
malone Posted March 7 Report Share Posted March 7 Dusted: I presume your last question was rhetorical?? It is no exaggeration to say that the successful establishment of the "jewish State" in Palestine was quite a severe blow to the delicate Arab ego. After all, if you've a deeply held conviction that Jews are beneth contempt, and if, throughout the Arab world they are treated with varying degrees of abuse and distain encapsulated in legal codes , it must then surely be unthinkable to permit a State to be established in the proverbial back yard by such mendacious, loathsome Kaffir. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
breaksny Posted March 7 Report Share Posted March 7 I didn't evade a damn thing u bonehead. I just have no clue what you're talking about. What does 1947 have to do with what I said? Malone you don't understand the issues at hand either. Of course they want the return of their peoples to Palestine proper as they have for 50 years since Israel drove the Palestinians out in the 40s, and many others in the 60s. That's what may be changing. Arafat said as much in his op-ed piece in the times last month. Financial compensation will probably be what happens in lieu of the right of return. All of you continue to prove my point about this exclusivist historical worldview. You have no conception of the other side of the conflict. I think I'd add arrogance and hostile ignorance to the phrase racist to describe your beliefs. Get over your holocaust/exodus-inspired zionist self righteousness already! Israel isn't the most special nation on Earth, it's just another country, built over the dead bodies of thousands of Palestinians. Wake the fuck up already. The Palestinian people aren't the cause of all Israel's security problems. Why am I still talking to you anyway? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dusted Posted March 7 Report Share Posted March 7 Answer the question!Why didn't they accept a separate Palestininian and Jewish state in 1947?JUST ANSWER THE QUESTION! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
totallytrance Posted March 7 Report Share Posted March 7 The USA has dollar bills to wipe their ass with it and everyone knows that in the world, and as long the US makes the wrong choices about the money then no one will favor it....so stop arguing b/c you 're not getting anywhere.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dusted Posted March 7 Report Share Posted March 7 Actually, we are getting somewhere, we are exposing Breaksny for the uninformed blowhard that he is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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