How Muslim Countries View America

[dusted]

The Palestinian people aren't the cause of all Israel's security problems. Why am I still talking to you anyway?

Right, they aren't. The rest of the Arab world comprises the other causes.

[malone]

Ah breaksny, so good to hear from you at last. You seem to have a wee problem with the notion that others may not share your views. Referring to Dusted as a "bonehead" may prove temporarily cathartic but it doesn't at all address his/her comments. I had as a roommate for five years an Arab chap from the west bank region ,so I would have to say I got more than my fair share of exposure to that point of view. Not to mention that I've followed the various arguments for some time now in a wide variety of opinion journals, including, though not limited to the nation,Z mag., progressive,writings of Chomsky ,Said , et al. So I certainly know what the various positions are. However, it seems to me that you've decided that your position on this particular matter will be determined by you ideological bent ,and no amount of discussion will be allowed to puncture that notion. Facts will be ignored if they prove inconvenient, or where that's not possible ,will be deemed irrelevant and all will be painted with the broad "Zionist" brush. There may well be a strong case to be made for the "Palestinian" cause. Alas, though , you have not made it.

[malone]

"The Palestinian people aren't the cause of all Israel's security problems. Why am I still talking to you anyway?"

Yeah ,right you are .It's the darn Aussies that are the main cause of Israel's security problems. Or is it the Mongolians? I can't remember which it was who most recently blew up a crowded shopping mall.

[breaksny]

I don't give a crap if you agree with me. I give a crap that you have this kneejerk reaction that's no longer even the mainstream popular opinion in Israel itself. I have the problem with your racism. I have a problem with your self-righteousness. I have a problem with the way you twist the truth and slant history as the Israeli far right is doing to suit the Israeli government's savage policies. And I'm not the only one who on this board who has a problem with it, as you can see if you read this thread in its full depth. I just haven't stopped fighting your ignorance like alot of the other posters have. And btw, you're a fool for sayin I haven't made my case. Bigot.

[dusted]

Why don't you JUST ANSWER THE QUESTION!

[dusted]

Here we go again, playing the race card, that old chestnut

Yes, when you can't address the issue, just call your opponent a bigot.

[breaksny]

I did answer the question u moron. How stupid are you anyway? I quit. I'm not gonna waste any more time on numbskulls on a music board. I pity the children you'll all raise someday. They're gonna fine examples in hate to teach them some day. There's a word for people like you, Jewish Fundamentalists. You're in the same camp as the people who assassinated Rabin or joined that Jewish Vigilante group that killed a Palestinian mother last week. It's really not any better than Hamas or Islamic Jihad. I never thought I'd meet people who didn't know the meaning of the word peace. Now I have.

[dusted]

NO you didn't. The question was:

Why did the Arabs not accept separate Palestinian and Jewish states in 1947, like the UN wanted?

[malone]

In addition to painting your opponents with the broad Zionist brush, It's heartening to see you've expanded your repertoire to include racist and bigot. I'm not at all surprised by this maneuver, it's at least as old as Stalin himself. That remains your choice however. If you wish to pretend that I twisted History, so be it. But I see your point :If you cannot defend against the arguments presented ,pretend your opponents said something else and attack that. One ineluctable fact remains however: you did not, despite your protestations, actually answer Dusted's question. It may well be that in your haste to spew your invective, your thoughts wandered astray. It's not uncommon for your like to do whatever it takes to appear to win the day. And the notion that you are so attuned with Israeli public opinion I find a little puzzling. Didn't they elect Sharon afterall? I can't speak for others ,but I'm not Jewish, thank you very much. So attempting to explain away the opinions of those with whom you disagree ,

by looking for religous/ethnic roots, is in fact a very bigoted exercise indeed.

[alfuckingcapone]

Wow!!!! What happen to this thread? Well, here is my 2 cents.

Why the fuck are you people over reacting to how they feel about us? I bet if we did a poll in this country, on how we feel about them ,it be the same.

As for the Pal/Isr conflict. It's all Sharon's fault! Things have not been that bad, down there untill he stepped in office! He wants no peace and just like Islamic Jihad and Hamas don't want to see the excistence of a Israel state, Sharon wants to drive all the Pals into the dead sea and those idiots like Hamas and Jihad are playing right into his hands. The sad thing is most of the deaths have been innocent on both sides. Sharon is wanted for war crimes in some countries and the UN condems him all the time, but why is Bush supporting a terriost. Are counrty is fucked up, they keep saying Araft needs to crack down, but when he does try to, Sharon fucks it up.

First off, I think Arafat sucks too, but com on now ,he is irrelevent. Right? So thats what Sharon says and then he keeps this guy in house arrest and blows up his police authority and then you want the guy to do more. Why should Arafat try so hard to help Sharon out just to please America ,a country that has supported Israel and gives them the tanks and so on, to make his people live in proverty? It is a pure fact, it has not got this bad since Sharon took over! His tactics are what is making his citizens the victims to terriosim. Even at one point in this conflict, Hamas and Jihad said they would stop the attacks, but what did Sharon do, entered more Pal territories and killed more people, so it only lasted 2 weeks because Sharon knew that if it lasted longer the ball would be on his side from the UN and the whole world, to make peace with the Pals. When one comes to the point to blow themselves up and kill innocent people, the question that should be brought up is why. Most of us can't sit here and really feel what pain is brought upon these people. They can't get to work because of checkpoints and there houses get demolished. They have lived there whole life in house arrest. Sharon has entered territories that have nver been entered, he is egging a fight. I say put these two enimes for decades, Sharon and Arafat, in a room and let them kill each other ,because both of them hate each other and are causing some much death on there people because of a grudge they have on each other forever. Let Mr Perez take over for both sides because he is the only one who really wants peace for both!

[malone]

"And btw, you're a fool for sayin I haven't made my case. Bigot."

I never suggested you hadn't made your case. I actually said you had't made the "Palestinian" case. Perhaps the distinction has eluded your grasp. So to clarify: We're all quite familar by now with your position. It may be stated thus: should anyone dare disagree with your point of view ,then they must submit themselves to an endless cacophony of personal insults meant to denegrade the humanity of your opponent, and presumably break their will to resist. You dance around the issues at hand while attempting to refashion your opponents position in order to make yourself appear oh so reasonable. That's why you need to make blatently specious points about racism and zionism and what not. You haven't made a single coherent point in your last several posts; all of your recent epistolary endeavors have been nothing more than psychological masturbation. Sure, you may feel good, but you haven't actually produced anything.

[nubreedfan]

I am neither a Zionist or Muslim. I am just a white guy from the Bronx.

This thread interests me because the discourse that has occurred in this forum between Breaksny and Dusted, with interruptions from others along the way, shows why even all the wisdom of Solomon can't solve this problem. These are ancient conflicts that have manifested in a modern form.

Breaksny and Dusted are obviously educated (at least in this matter) people who are untennable in their respective positions. The difference is that in the Middle East, this "discussion" would have already resulted in violence.

I will say that Malone has brought up some well thought out points.

Breaksny and Dusted:

Humor me.

In 20 words or less, what is your HONEST final solution to this situation?

[tribal]

ok, this is tiresome. by now this thread is meaningless and void of interesting debate. breaksny is accusing anyone who disagrees with him as a conservative/racist bigot. no vision, no consideration for valid israeli security concerns, so its pretty much the israelis fault right? its all because i dont understand the way PA functions. ok.

dusted is saying that europe is sinkin beneath its arab immigrants?? alrighty then. wtf, why is everyone either a conservative bigot or a left wing twat? this thread is over.

[midiman]

Valid Israeli security concerns huh?

Israeli troops have been shooting and killing Palestinian ambulence drivers who are trying to help wounded people. They are shooting the elederly and letting them bleed to death. They are shooting Palestinians and then posing for pictures with the dead bodies.They are killing pregnant women trying to get to the hospitals. They even shot and killed a United Nations relief worker who was driving in a clearly marked U.N. van. They have been setting fire to wheat fields causing starving people to not be able to grow food. They are not letting supplies in and are bulldozing houses. But this is all in defense huh. Sounds more like genocide to me.

Doesn't surpise me that Israeli soldiers on the front line are starting to refuse serving in the army after what they have been told to do.

[midiman]

Originally posted by dusted

I would also like to know, what business was the State of Israel to Egypt, Lebanon, Syria, Iraq and Jordan? They are not Palestinians.

No they are not Palestinians, but they are all Arabs. What you do not understand is that the countries you mentioned were not created by Arabs but by the western allies at the end of world war I. After the Arabs helped the Allies fight off the Ottomans in the Middle East, they divided up the middle east into these countries. But to the Arabs, they are not this or that...they are Arab and will not tolerate seeing one of their own treated in such a manner. That is why Arabs get upset when the U.S. continues to bomb and kill Iraqis. Political borders don't mean shit. When an Arab is suffering, other Arabs will not tolerate it.

[midiman]

Originally posted by dusted

Answer the question!

Why didn't they accept a separate Palestininian and Jewish state in 1947?

JUST ANSWER THE QUESTION!

If someone broke into your home and then said that they would let you live in the garage, how would you respond?

[midiman]

It is interesting that you are so critical of Arafat. While I do believe he is the wrong man for this job. He is a sheep compared to the wolf currently leading Israel. Need I remind you of the massacres that Sharon carried out in Lebanon.

We hear a lot of talk of concessions being demanded by and offered from Israel. Even though Israel demands concessions from Israel, Palestine is not seeking anyconcessions from Israel. What it insists upon is simply "compliance". Compliance with agreements that Israel has already signed, compliance with international law and compliance with relevant U.N. resolutions. That is it. Compliance is not a concession, it is an obligation One that must be adhered to both legally and morally and it is necessary if Israel truly seeks peace.

We also hear a lot about how the Palestinian lands conquered in the 1967 war as being "disputed". They are not. They are being occupied "occupied" by Israel and occupied illegally. While sovereignty over expanded East jerusalem is explicity contested, none of the world's other 200 sovereign states has recognized Israel's sovereinty claim. Meanwhile Palestinian sovereignty over the Gaza Strip and the rest of the West bank for that matter are in both literal and legal senses uncontested.

Even the creator of modern Israel, David Ben-Gurion came out of retirement in 1967 to say that the occupied territories must be given back and that was the only way to achieve peace.

The time for peace came during the Oslo agreement in 1993 when the PLO finally accepted the reality of an Israeli state. A measure of good faith by the Israeli government would have been to at least shut down the settlements in Gaza that serve no purpose for them. They didn't...Instead they ordered for more settlements to be made and this has continued to this day.

[midiman]

I tell you what I would like to see. I wish the Palestinians would just lay down their guns and bombs and stones and conduct peaceful protests. I think every Palestinian should gather up his family and walk to his original home and land that they used to have before the Israelis came in and sit down on it. Those who's homes are no longer there should march to Jerusalem and sit down in the middle. I would love to see the Israeli reaction to that. I do not doubt that a bunch of the Palestinians would be killed by the IDF but only so many people would be allowed to be shot before the U.N. would step in and fix this once and for all.

[malone]

"What you do not understand is that the countries you mentioned were not created by Arabs but by the western allies at the end of world war I. "

How do you know that dusted does not understand how these states were brought about? As to your point that Arabs would not tolerate the suffering of other Arabs, well that is quite evidently not borne out by the facts. The enormous tragedy of the Palestinian refugees is certain testament to the abysmal performance of the Arab nations in integrating these people into their societies. A similar number of Jews from the surrounding Arab states who fled their countries in '48 and afterward, were taken in and integrated by Israel. Why could the Arab states not do the same for their people? Why are these people living in camps more than fifty years after their original displacement?

[Bebby]

WTF do Muslims know?!?!?!?! and most important, who cares????

[breaksny]

If anyone wants 2 discuss this or any other political issue with me in a civilized manner feel free to pm me.

Btw, comparing me to Stalin I take as the equivalent as being called anti-semitic. My Dad's Lithuanian and anyone who knows his/her history would understand why I find that remark offensive. Should I compare your thinking to Hitler now?

I can talk to moderates on these issues like crobra, sassa, bigpop, and nycmuzik among others. I don't think any of them are nearly as radical in their views as I am, and would probably be as critical of palestinian militant groups and the PA itself as you all are. But they have balanced viewpoints. They can present an argument for the other side that I can listen to and learn from b/c its rational, it has a point to it and its not impulsively defensive as those of you like malone, tribal, and dusted make. Maybe it's just a few of you on this board, I dunno. You seem historical fossils trapped in time by your paranoid beliefs and the belief that b/c jews suffered through the holocaust and 1000s of years of persecution in europe, that puts their state beyond reproach. Until 100 odd years ago, there wasn't this conflict between Jews and Moslem for the most part. Blame the Christians for your problems, I dunno. To this day, they're inflicted far more suffering on Jews from an historical standpoint than Moslems ever have.

I even try to see tribal as a moderate, but I can't given the fact that he questions how key the creation of a palestinian state is to the process of peacemaking. I never said it was a panacea, but its a vital building block, actually a keystone to peace. And the conspiracy theories all of you have, that draw on these allusions to 1947 or the 6 day war seem to have no relevance to the basic question here which is how to make peace, or to better understand the conflict in its entirety. They also seem to ignore the fact that the PA has compromised, 14 years ago actually, and that it's under no foreign countries thumb. I hate it as an institution b/c I think it's authoritarian, corrupt and at times autocratic. I also know for a fact that it's main purpose is to serve Israeli security interests, often at the price of palestinian democracy, economic development, and human rights. I agree with tribal that it'd be nice if the moderate opposition were in power in the territories, but they're not. The 2 most powerful and popular oranizations are fatah and hamas, each with a quarter or so of the population supporting them. Building democracy there will take time. I just don't think Israel gives a damn about that process, otherwise they wouldn'tve dragged Oslo out for so long, or more fundamentally have insisted on such an one-sided agreement in the 1st place.

Saying sharon is like milosevic, however, really isn't a stretch of the truth. But saying I only listen to those who agree with me is. My belief basically is the views you on the right on this thread (a few of you anyway) are espousing are zionist and zionism is racism as far I'm concerned. Having a homeland for a given cultural or religious group doesn't make it the most special country in the world, able to do whatever it wants on the international stage as Israel seems to think it can, especially now. Oslo failed b/c of its basic conception that a palestinian state was only possible if israeli security was the most important component in the agreement that allowed for the creation of said state. Even if such emphasis would make said state unviable b/c the nature and definition of the term "security" would be defined solely by Israel. The palestinians wouldn't get a state or peace unless they agreed to this israeli (and basically american as well) definition of the term security. Camp David failed b/c of timing and b/c Israel's starting point for negotiations was 1967, not 1948 as it was for the Palestinians. The palestinians rightly view the great historical compromise they've made as recognizing israel's right to exist peacefully and giving up over 3/4 of their homeland. But that was israel's starting point for negotiations. Those 2 views can't coexist since they're basically mutually exclusive. That's why I say Israel's maximum redlines don't meet the minimum needs of the of the Palestinians. There's alot more to it than that, such as the fact that Oslo put the PA effectively under Israel's thumb from a legal standpoint, b/c it removed the element of outside mediation or other intervention if a conflict were to arise over principles in the framework agreement or its implementation. Basically the Palestinians had no recourse to appeal to a 3rd party if they felt wronged, they could only deal with a far more powerful country bilaterally. As you on the right will point out, there isn't even palestinian country. Said more powerful country obviously hasn't had their best interests at heart, under governments of the left or right...things just seem to completely stall under rightist israeli governments. Such a peace is called a hegemonic peace, since from a bp (balance of power) standpoint, the parties are unequal, unlike the nature of Israel's agreements with Egypt and Jordan, both of which have the full trappings of a state and therefore be able to bring to bear sufficient leverage on their partner in a peace process to make for an equitable, if not equal, agreement. The same cannot be said for the Palestinians to this day. Hence the hegemonic nature of the agreement, the instability it created, and its failure.

This is all besides the fact that Israel as a society discriminates across the board against its Palestinian minority. Arabs get respresentation in the legislature but have never even been included in a any government. And that's just the tip of the iceberg of basic institutions in Israeli society and government that are racist...Sharon is far worse, he proved as much in Lebanon and he's proving it again now. As far as his popularity goes, ya he was elected, b/c the left and the peace camp gave up or changed their views after the 2nd intifdada started and the country's arab minority boycotted the election almost entirely. Regardless of that fact, read the polls dude sharon has minority support now...he trails netanyahu by 15 points or more. And the numbers will only go down as this continues. I don't need 2 b an expert on Israeli politics to see that his days in office are numbered.

Anyway, as I said pm me if you wanna discuss this in a civilized manner. I feel bad for nycmuzik, he tried to start a dialogue and it got coopted by the far right on the board. It was inevitable I suppose. I don't consider myself blameless in that regard either, but I am openminded to relevant discussion...I just think some of you are so close-minded you don't listen and will never learn. You're opponents of peace b/c the only peace you want is one that denies freedom to your neighbors, who btw are you kinfolk. That's the saddest part of all, this war is between extended members of the same family.

[dusted]

Originally posted by midiman

No they are not Palestinians, but they are all Arabs. What you do not understand is that the countries you mentioned were not created by Arabs but by the western allies at the end of world war I. After the Arabs helped the Allies fight off the Ottomans in the Middle East, they divided up the middle east into these countries. But to the Arabs, they are not this or that...they are Arab and will not tolerate seeing one of their own treated in such a manner. That is why Arabs get upset when the U.S. continues to bomb and kill Iraqis. Political borders don't mean shit. When an Arab is suffering, other Arabs will not tolerate it.

If they care so much, why don't they take in the refugees?

[dusted]

Originally posted by midiman

If someone broke into your home and then said that they would let you live in the garage, how would you respond?

So, what you are saying is the Arabs DON'T think Israel has any right to exist, not then and not now.

[dusted]

"I can talk to moderates on these issues like crobra, sassa, bigpop, and nycmuzik among others. "

Moderates? You must be joking.

Seriously, you are the one you can't discuss this in a civilized manner. You can't argue with facts so you start tossing insults around.

The only reason you can talk to these other people is because they agree with you, and you obviously are used to only talking to people who agree with you. (which is why your argument skills are so lacking)

[dusted]

"Until 100 odd years ago, there wasn't this conflict between Jews and Moslem for the most part. Blame the Christians for your problems, I dunno. To this day, they're inflicted far more suffering on Jews from an historical standpoint than Moslems ever have. "

That is an absolute lie.