I cannot believe it has come to this..

[bigpoppanils]

Originally posted by njangel

Hippies like myself........ That’s right having an opinion that contradicts going to war makes me a hippie, I love people like you that have to attack people personally when they don’t agree with you, mature - let me tell you. I don’t think we should go to war, I’m not even going to continue this argument with you b/c you’re too closed minded to listen to other people's opinions and responded logically. You have your opinions, I have mine, but I’m mature enough to accept that. Its ignorant people like you that do more harm to country than good

[breakbeatz2]

Originally posted by zlatang

just goes to show how well you know the 20th century culture. even if their history stopped in 1814, the french have such a ruch cultural tradition that (i am sorry to say this, but...) this counrty cannot match.

if you evaluate a nation according to war-making that's a different (ie barbaric) view. however, even if this is the only criterion you have, don't forget WWI and how many soldiers franc lost there.

cultural tradition??? Ok, they do. Now, um, what does that have to do with modern politics? Oh, right, nothing. So you are saying that we should listen to the French about Iraq because a) they have a cultural tradition and b)they lost a lot of soldiers in WWI. Great reasoning! If you put it that way of course the French are right!

Only reason the French are even a soveregn nation now is because they were liberated by British and American troops in WWII, so now we save there ass in war, but they cant back us and England up when we need to handle our business. Great people they are, those French.

It is pathetic how naive some European countries act. If the Eifel Tower came down in the middle of Paris maybe they'd understand. We tried to stay out of te conflict in WWII and that only cost countless lives that couldve been saved. The lesson we shouldve learned is we need to handle business before it gets out of control.

Now, let me ask you, which part of my statement can you disagree with????

Dima

[Felix_Leiter]

Originally posted by njangel

I know, right

your whole argument deserves a

[Felix_Leiter]

Originally posted by breakbeatz2

cultural tradition??? Ok, they do. Now, um, what does that have to do with modern politics? Oh, right, nothing. So you are saying that we should listen to the French about Iraq because a) they have a cultural tradition and b)they lost a lot of soldiers in WWI. Great reasoning! If you put it that way of course the French are right!

Only reason the French are even a soveregn nation now is because they were liberated by British and American troops in WWII, so now we save there ass in war, but they cant back us and England up when we need to handle our business. Great people they are, those French.

It is pathetic how naive some European countries act. If the Eifel Tower came down in the middle of Paris maybe they'd understand. We tried to stay out of te conflict in WWII and that only cost countless lives that couldve been saved. The lesson we shouldve learned is we need to handle business before it gets out of control.

Now, let me ask you, which part of my statement can you disagree with????

Dima

9/11 put America into a new era...while the rest of the world is still in the pre-9/11 mentality, but wait till some landmark gets hit in Europe and thousands die..we will see how their viewpoint changes. Like I mentioned earlier, France is against America due to their "discount" on oil from Iraq.

[njangel]

Originally posted by smokesum

9/11 put America into a new era...while the rest of the world is still in the pre-9/11 mentality, but wait till some landmark gets hit in Europe and thousands die..we will see how their viewpoint changes.

You're right..........the rest of the world is soooo sheltered, I mean Israel doesn’t deal w/suicide bombers every day, and countries like Northern Ireland haven’t been dealing w/a civil war since 1914. I could go on & on... but you’re right other countries have it so easy. Keep talking, dig yourself more into hole

Feel free to answer me with a or - since that seems to have become the extent of your vocabulary w/me

[breakbeatz2]

Originally posted by njangel

You're right..........the rest of the world is soooo sheltered, I mean Israel doesn’t deal w/suicide bombers every day, and countries like Northern Ireland haven’t been dealing w/a civil war since 1914. I could go on & on... but you’re right other countries have it so easy. Keep talking, dig yourself more into hole

Feel free to answer me with a or - since that seems to have become the extent of your vocabulary w/me

answer me not him. or have have you run into a brick wall with me??

[njangel]

Originally posted by breakbeatz2

answer me not him. or have have you run into a brick wall with me??

[breakbeatz2]

i meant that i'm kind of insulted you dont consider my argument worthy of an answer??

you challenged my opinion so i defended it......

and now you dont seem to have anything else to say

[njangel]

Originally posted by breakbeatz2

i meant that i'm kind of insulted you dont consider my argument worthy of an answer??

you challenged my opinion so i defended it......

and now you dont seem to have anything else to say

Where in this thread have I challenged your opinion????

[breakbeatz2]

Originally posted by njangel

Where in this thread have I challenged your opinion????

oooooops!!!! i'm sorry, that was zlatang, not you. sorry!

i got mixexd up i guess.

[Felix_Leiter]

Originally posted by njangel

You're right..........the rest of the world is soooo sheltered, I mean Israel doesn’t deal w/suicide bombers every day, and countries like Northern Ireland haven’t been dealing w/a civil war since 1914. I could go on & on... but you’re right other countries have it so easy. Keep talking, dig yourself more into hole

Feel free to answer me with a or - since that seems to have become the extent of your vocabulary w/me

The extent of my vocabulary? Please Im just trying to not waste any more time with you. But, it's just so easy to make you look stupid. Now you are forced to put words in my mouth....your beat. I never said the rest of the world is so sheltered only that America is in a new era. Well, we are in a new era. The destruction of those towers made us realized that we werent as safe as we thought we were. We now have to get rid of this evil before it strikes again. Funny you mentioned Israel and N. Ireland, why you chose those two countries I don't know? I don't hear that much anti-war propaganda coming from those countries.They are actually quite suppostive of us invading Iraq. If you didn't understand my point, then why continue responding just for the sake of responding? Bottom line, if a 747 flew into the Eiffel Tower or any other European landmark and thousands died, Europe would be significantly more supportive of America. They still have that comfortability that we lost.

[njangel]

Originally posted by smokesum

The extent of my vocabulary? Please Im just trying to not waste any more time with you. But, it's just so easy to make you look stupid. Now you are forced to put words in my mouth....your beat. I never said the rest of the world is so sheltered only that America is in a new era. Well, we are in a new era. The destruction of those towers made us realized that we werent as safe as we thought we were. We now have to get rid of this evil before it strikes again. Funny you mentioned Israel and N. Ireland, why you chose those two countries I don't know? I don't hear that much anti-war propaganda coming from those countries.They are actually quite suppostive of us invading Iraq. If you didn't understand my point, then why continue responding just for the sake of responding? Bottom line, if a 747 flew into the Eiffel Tower or any other European landmark and thousands died, Europe would be significantly more supportive of America. They still have that comfortability that we lost.

Yep, like I said before, keep talking, its now just making me laugh

[Felix_Leiter]

Originally posted by njangel

Yep, like I said before, keep talking, its now just making me laugh

in the beginning your responses were making me laugh, but now they just make me yawn..........

NEXT

[njangel]

Originally posted by smokesum

in the beginning your responses were making me laugh, but now they just make me yawn..........

NEXT

So then why respond???

[zlatang]

Originally posted by breakbeatz2

cultural tradition??? Ok, they do. Now, um, what does that have to do with modern politics? Oh, right, nothing. So you are saying that we should listen to the French about Iraq because a) they have a cultural tradition and b)they lost a lot of soldiers in WWI. Great reasoning! If you put it that way of course the French are right!

Only reason the French are even a soveregn nation now is because they were liberated by British and American troops in WWII, so now we save there ass in war, but they cant back us and England up when we need to handle our business. Great people they are, those French.

It is pathetic how naive some European countries act. If the Eifel Tower came down in the middle of Paris maybe they'd understand. We tried to stay out of te conflict in WWII and that only cost countless lives that couldve been saved. The lesson we shouldve learned is we need to handle business before it gets out of control.

Now, let me ask you, which part of my statement can you disagree with????

Dima

"French are punks and we should give two shits what they say. They havent been of any significance since Napoleon."

that's where we disagree! i suppose what makes a nation significant for you doensn't for me. if you think the nation which fights the wars (ie kills people) is more significant than the one that gave us versailles and impressionism, than we can't argue. the level of cultural sophistication in every aspect of life that france has reached will never be reached here in the us, alas. and if that is not a criterion for a evaluation, then i suggest we turn to such as: who's better in rodeo, or who is better in making chain-food restaurants...

"We tried to stay out of te conflict in WWII and that only cost countless lives that couldve been saved. The lesson we shouldve learned is we need to handle business before it gets out of control."

i have no doubts the usa would have stayed out ww2 had it not had particular interests to protect its interests -- that is, to stop japan in its invasion and also to protect england. european countries have suffered much more than the us, who didn't bury millions of people in WWII. the usa marched in to war in 1943, once when it was quite obvious that germans were to lose. and also apart from liberating the western europe, the americans together with the british had no problems in delivering the entire eastern europe to the russians (to their traditional enemies!!!) who sucked it dry for the next 50 years. so you can't claim that the usa was this angelic force that always came to rescue the poor european nations when they needed help. we also all know that the us has fought wars outside of its territory and bombed many countries since WWII; i suppose you can name some good reasons for these as well...

[zlatang]

Originally posted by smokesum

9/11 put America into a new era...while the rest of the world is still in the pre-9/11 mentality, but wait till some landmark gets hit in Europe and thousands die..we will see how their viewpoint changes. Like I mentioned earlier, France is against America due to their "discount" on oil from Iraq.

it almost sounds like you'd like the landmark in the rest of the world to be hit! that is sad. this world doesn't revolve around the usa, i think, and that the others live in the *pre-9/11* era, perhaps may be to their own benefit... all that you said just shows how ignorant and obnoxious some people in this country can be, which really makes me sad....

[breakbeatz2]

Originally posted by zlatang

"French are punks and we should give two shits what they say. They havent been of any significance since Napoleon."

that's where we disagree! i suppose what makes a nation significant for you doensn't for me. if you think the nation which fights the wars (ie kills people) is more significant than the one that gave us versailles and impressionism, than we can't argue. the level of cultural sophistication in every aspect of life that france has reached will never be reached here in the us, alas. and if that is not a criterion for a evaluation, then i suggest we turn to such as: who's better in rodeo, or who is better in making chain-food restaurants...

"We tried to stay out of te conflict in WWII and that only cost countless lives that couldve been saved. The lesson we shouldve learned is we need to handle business before it gets out of control."

i have no doubts the usa would have stayed out ww2 had it not had particular interests to protect its interests -- that is, to stop japan in its invasion and also to protect england. european countries have suffered much more than the us, who didn't bury millions of people in WWII. the usa marched in to war in 1943, once when it was quite obvious that germans were to lose. and also apart from liberating the western europe, the americans together with the british had no problems in delivering the entire eastern europe to the russians (to their traditional enemies!!!) who sucked it dry for the next 50 years. so you can't claim that the usa was this angelic force that always came to rescue the poor european nations when they needed help. we also all know that the us has fought wars outside of its territory and bombed many countries since WWII; i suppose you can name some good reasons for these as well...

the reasons were good actually. and you can even say that the cold war was good. here's why: USSR fell into the state it is today because it was spending way too high of a percentage of its GDP on defense spending, because it was trying to keep up with the US. now if you think that the USSR falling apart is good and that it being one of the last great Communist Powers to fall, then you cant argue against all te american wars because in effct, they were all responsible for sucking te money from the USSR and eventually leading to its demise.

now, the USA is no angelic force, but in going after Iraq it seems to have learned from its previous mistakes. when theres a threat, you take it out. WWII was a great example of that, and the US didnt just come in after the war, but played a pretty big role in turning the tides (um, dont really remember the Germans retreating before the US got there). now i'm not saying France isnt a great nation, just not a politically significant one when it comes to this. we arent talking about art or literature, were talking about saddam hussein. and you cant tell me that we should listen to France about the war based on their artists or their culture. what I AM saying is that the French are backstabing us and the British for what we did for them in WWII (save their ass). they are leaving us out to dry while we didnt do that to them. regardless of the reasoning, thats what happened.

theres a chance Saddam isnt goin to do anytihg with his weapons. but there is a chance he is developing weapons to use in the future, and i for one aint willing ot face that chance. i say take him out before he becomes more ddangerous. after WWI Germany was pretty weak and in shambles, and nobody wanted to bother withgoing against Hitler when he came to power, but in the end, Hitler shouldve been stopped before he had tha chance to build up his military. i hope we dont make the same mistake with hussein.

[zlatang]

Originally posted by breakbeatz2

the reasons were good actually. and you can even say that the cold war was good. here's why: USSR fell into the state it is today because it was spending way too high of a percentage of its GDP on defense spending, because it was trying to keep up with the US. now if you think that the USSR falling apart is good and that it being one of the last great Communist Powers to fall, then you cant argue against all te american wars because in effct, they were all responsible for sucking te money from the USSR and eventually leading to its demise.

now, the USA is no angelic force, but in going after Iraq it seems to have learned from its previous mistakes. when theres a threat, you take it out. WWII was a great example of that, and the US didnt just come in after the war, but played a pretty big role in turning the tides (um, dont really remember the Germans retreating before the US got there). now i'm not saying France isnt a great nation, just not a politically significant one when it comes to this. we arent talking about art or literature, were talking about saddam hussein. and you cant tell me that we should listen to France about the war based on their artists or their culture. what I AM saying is that the French are backstabing us and the British for what we did for them in WWII (save their ass). they are leaving us out to dry while we didnt do that to them. regardless of the reasoning, thats what happened.

theres a chance Saddam isnt goin to do anytihg with his weapons. but there is a chance he is developing weapons to use in the future, and i for one aint willing ot face that chance. i say take him out before he becomes more ddangerous. after WWI Germany was pretty weak and in shambles, and nobody wanted to bother withgoing against Hitler when he came to power, but in the end, Hitler shouldve been stopped before he had tha chance to build up his military. i hope we dont make the same mistake with hussein.

i can see that you are far more serious about this than i thought. however, i don't see france as backstabbing the usa now -- all their diplomats suggest is that more time should be given to the un inspectors.

if france is so unimportant, why is it on the security council? i suppose usa had its hand in making this council as well... all i am reacting here against is this insane labelling of the whole country as "bad" just because it dosn't support the war option.

another point: who do you think will get hurt first in the usa bombing of iraq? saddam? i doubt he will -- it'll prolly be some poor ignorant ppl who didn't neccessarily support him. does that solve the problem?

and finally -- the main villian in this post-9/11 myth is still not captured!!!! how do you explain that? is that the fault of france as well? or is it rather that it's not as easy to catch someone who operates within a network of brain-washed followers...

[Felix_Leiter]

Originally posted by zlatang

it almost sounds like you'd like the landmark in the rest of the world to be hit! that is sad. this world doesn't revolve around the usa, i think, and that the others live in the *pre-9/11* era, perhaps may be to their own benefit... all that you said just shows how ignorant and obnoxious some people in this country can be, which really makes me sad....

to their own benefit?? so you mean a sense of false security will be good for them and what is sad is how you put words in my mouth and assume I would wish harm on someone else. ..and this world may not revolve around the usa but we are the sole remaining superpower...and if it makes you that sad go back to Europe

[zlatang]

Originally posted by smokesum

to their own benefit?? so you mean a sense of false security will be good for them and what is sad is how you put words in my mouth and assume I would wish harm on someone else. ..and this world may not revolve around the usa but we are the sole remaining superpower...and if it makes you that sad go back to Europe

i am sorry if it seemed i put words in your mind. i wanted to say that it is *as if* you wish something like 9/11 would happen to france as well, so it would reach this ""new level of consciousness and alertness"" (paranoia and aggression in other words). i certainly wouldn't wish anyone to go through that.

isn't it great to be the sole remaining superpower? i bet many americans feel great about the ability to bomb the rest of the world and get away with it. that is the problem here -- and if anything, 9/11 events should have made the usa reflect on that role it assumed. to be the only world policeman is a role that is demanding and it can create enemies. perhaps france will not part-take in such a play? perhaps france thinks diplomacy is sometimes better and can spare more lives than aggression? and if that is the opinion of the democratically elected french government, then i believe the democratically elected government of the usa and its citizens should respect it and not demonise the french instead.

and finally i sense a bit of xenophobia in your phrase "go back to europe." don't worry -- i go europe quite often (so unlike the most of the usa population which doesn't have passports and hence depirves itself of the chance to expand their horizons) and it feels nice there.... i don't need to be told by you whether i should leave or not -- right?

[Felix_Leiter]

Don't get me wrong, I was biorn here but consider the way I was brought up as European. I love Europe and hope to move there one day. But do not overlook the fact that France has a hidden agenda in regards to Iraq.

[zlatang]

Originally posted by smokesum

Don't get me wrong, I was biorn here but consider the way I was brought up as European. I love Europe and hope to move there one day. But do not overlook the fact that France has a hidden agenda in regards to Iraq.

ok don't get me wrong either. i'm not saying that france is the greatest country in the world. i am just reacting against this scary demonisation of it...

[starvingartist]

Very interesting to see completely opposite views on the same subject matter. Is there a right or wrong? There's one history, one past, one present, one future. Who decides what it will be? There are victims and there are criminals. The guilty should be punished, the innocent should be saved. But who are the victims, and who are the guilty. Will the innocent be killed making the victims the guilty??????????????????????????????????

[ybbald]

Originally posted by smokesum

do not overlook the fact that France has a hidden agenda in regards to Iraq.

no doubt

[nympho69]

mattie stepanek's thoughts on war...

"War and hatred, conflict and struggle, pain and strife between countries within countries, between groups within groups, between individuals within individuals, never past, always present. Is there a future? We know but we do not understand. We realize but we do not learn from lessons. We have wisdom but we do not work with universal effort to change what was, what is, what cannot continue to be if we hope for peace, for harmony, for a future, for life."