I cannot believe it has come to this..

[Bebby]

Originally posted by mangos

Some people amaze me...

I don't favor war with Iraq, and I'm not a Bush fan..didn't vote for him, and don't like how he's been as our president so far. But thats the catch. He's our president. Weather you like him or not, voted for him or not...he's still the president of the United States of America. At times like these, we all need to come together and support America, Americans, and our leaders. Does it take something like another 9/11 for you people to stop bickering and for us to be united and close as we were the months following that? I certainly hope not...but it seems like unless something like that happens, people forget what we owe our country and one another.

agrees. Some people are just so damn arrogant! Wake up people!!!

[rdancer]

Im not a fan of the whole bomb them all to hell approach, and Im not for GENOCIDE, but seriously all these little boys and girls living in these countries will grow up and continue this cycle of hate. If you read the Quuarn which I did yesterday for SASSA, I mean like read a couple of passages you will see how much HATRED these people have. And the worst thing is they are sneaky..

I think whatever needs to be done, needs to be done soon before this gets worse and we all live in to much fear!

[Crackorn]

If you don't support the country that offers you every opportunity in the world, the country that my father and both grandfathers fought in wars for protect your freedom then GET THE FUCK OUT and go live in Syria or Libya or Saudi Arabia. You're a lot of bullshit talk until someone drop a bomb on your head and then you'll be singing a different tune. Or is that what you actually want? Do you remember 9/11 or were you actually born yesterday? That REALLY HAPPENED and if given a chance it will happen AGAIN and AGAIN and AGAIN until all of us are dead. Wake up, cut the 'American Government Conspiracy' bullshit and support your country or LEAVE. You asses would have been kicked all over town if you pulled this crap during WW1 or WW2 or even the Korean war. NO ONE wants war but if it's to protect us from getting killed then it's unfortunately a necessary evil.

[rdancer]

UPPER LABIA is nice this time of year!

[cintron]

people. shut up for a second.

just think.

everyone here is bringing the best intellectual points out to battle that they can dig out of their minds and theorizing and postulating so much that this sounds more like a debate between two harvard political science professors instead of people who are CONNECTED WITH THE REAL WORLD.

THINK for just a second. Think about the delivery mechanisms for these attacks. Young men mostly. Fiery-tempered, determined, fanatic.

Recruited by an organization for their youthful zeal and ability to be swayed into believing suicide and giving their life is an honor and a privledge.

THINK about the japanese. The kamikazes, the death-before-dishonor code they lived by. How their soldiers and airmen gave THEIR lives in suicide attacks because they thought they would bring death and destruction upon the enemy.

How do you fight an idea like that? A 20 year old man with a bomb strapped to his chest walking into a building, or onto a bus. Or a team of men driving a Lincoln Navigator loaded with explosives and VX gas.

Don't concern yourself with the how and why of politics. Both sides have their legitimate arguments as to how the situation got to be what it is. We may be wrong in what we have done, but so are they. Nobody is innocent when blood is shed.

Diplomacy WILL NOT WORK now, because we have an enemy who believes that the ONLY WAY to defeat us is to destroy us.

You don't see the US holding talks with Al Quaida representatives.

The only messages we get from them are packages, like beirut 1983, Khobar towers, USS Cole, 9/11 NYC/DC. Thousands of people dead because that is the way that those people send us a postcard telling us what they want. Their methods are tactical, not strategic and not political. To deal with a tactical threat requires a strategic plan and tactical execution. We NEED people like Seal Team Six, Delta Force and others to go hunt these guys down and eliminate them. Our intelligence services, despite their screwups, DO provide adequate data for us to identify and neutralize threats. We as civilians are NOT going to hear WHY we blew up a random car in the middle east, or why a building vanished. We don't know, but we SHOULD believe it is for our good. Our government is NOT out to dupe us. THey are made of people JUST LIKE US that WE ELECTED. It is all to easy to fall into the romantic anarchistic notion that the government is some massive inhuman grinding machine only created to tax us to death and kill foreign people because of oil needs. I'm sorry but that notion isn't accurate.

Now i may be on the fence somewhat with the war on Iraq. Just because Saddam isn't killing someone today and causing aggression doesn't mean that he's innocent and doesn't have something up his sleeve. [to note: he has ALWAYS had something up his sleeve involving murder. look at his record while in his presidency.] I think that he has the OBLIGATION to follow the Gulf War surrender terms HE PERSONALLY agreed to. When you lose a war, you LOSE. The fact that the United States is actually LISTENING to the Iraqi demands that U2 spyplanes are not allowed to assist UN inspectors, just shows that Iraq has a position of authority that IT SHOULD NOT HAVE as a country who lost a war and is currently in violation of just about every document signed since 1991. There is no soverign nation issue here. They lost a war and could have EASILY avoided all this had they allowed the inspectors to do their job and agreed to dismantle weapons of mass destruction. We did not say their tanks had to go away, or their planes had to be scrapped. Just the weapons that HAVE been used in the past on their part.

I personally don't see why we are the bullies today when we finally call their bluff after more than 10 years of them sticking the finger at us and shuffling their weapons program around, in plain sight of our intelligence sources. They do that because they see the US as a sort of dog on the UN's leash, who wants to attack what's taunting them, but cannot. That brings prestige among the Iraqi government because they are singlehandedly duping the United States and causing the UN to trip over it's own feet and spend so much time fighting amongst itself and with the US, that in the meantime the Iraqis buy themselves more time to do whatever they're doing.

I don't argue the how or WHY of politics today. That is foolish and pointless. It leads to discussions like this that spawn conspiracy theories, bullshit infighting and general bedlam.

I personally believe that if Iraq doesn't destroy it's chem/bio and nuke weapons programs, that we will do it for them. I believe that this time we may do what we didn't do last time: go all the way to Baghdad and remove Saddam as a leader. Or we might not. Saddam and his regime are a pain in the ass but the real issue isn't sitting behind a desk. The real issue is a bunch of sleek metal cannisters buried somewhere in low-lying bunkers in the desert. Maybe one or two has been "misaccounted for" and just happens to be sitting inside someone's trunk on a boat that's docking in florida in a few days. We don't know.

That unfortunately is the reality we are forced to deal with.

The government cannot afford inaction for the safety of its own people. The only thing worse than being percieved as a bully is being perceived as ignorant.

"Always do something, even if it might be the wrong thing, but NEVER simply do nothing."

war may not be the answer for everyone. peace would certainly be a great answer for all of us... but that's not our reality now.

until we deal with the problems we have at hand one way or another, we won't be able to enjoy peace.

argue all you want about who's wrong and who's right.

The only people who have true perspective on that issue are those who are dead.

[bigpoppanils]

Originally posted by djjonstephen

we're not there to slaughter Iraqis, we're there to slaughter terrorists

however..too few people in this country can see a difference...too many people automatically associate "Arab" with "Terrorist"

and to girly and legend....us anti-war folk dont hate the US...we disapprove of our government's actions. Dissent is patriotic...not un-american..contrary to what the current administration would like us to beleive.

And I do want to leave this country eventually...our government's behavior is just one of my reasons however.

and girly...i hope your brother comes back home without injury

[bigpoppanils]

Originally posted by ellinita

.... women, children, men.... dancing for joy and burning the American flag??

erm...that newsclip was actually footage from Palestine after the Iraqi invasion of Kuwait back in 1991.

[ultracrzy]

Ghhost you state a lot of valid issues man. Valid, but driven by personal hate towards US international policies. Yes, we know that Saddam has chemical weapons, because US government helped him develop it during cold war. Now US realizes, just like Soviet Union did long time ago a price to pay for it's international policies. But it doesn't make it right for you to seek shelter in this country and say

because "your countries" government managed to fuck up the countries I was raised in...i feel like u owe me something..and that something is an education and $...so i'll stay here for as long as i feel i have to in order to recover my damages

and if you want people who lost relatives and friends in 9/11 to respect your opinion , you will respect theirs

[sassa]

Originally posted by rdancer

Im not a fan of the whole bomb them all to hell approach, and Im not for GENOCIDE, but seriously all these little boys and girls living in these countries will grow up and continue this cycle of hate. If you read the Quuarn which I did yesterday for SASSA, I mean like read a couple of passages you will see how much HATRED these people have. And the worst thing is they are sneaky..

I think whatever needs to be done, needs to be done soon before this gets worse and we all live in to much fear!

this is the most racist shit i ever heard. jews and christians are just as extreme, ie orthodox jews and fundamentalist christians..yes, they exist, and they are not all just muslim....please open your mind, you sound very narrow minded.

[rdancer]

Originally posted by sassa

this is the most racist shit i ever heard. jews and christians are just as extreme, ie orthodox jews and fundamentalist christians..yes, they exist, and they are not all just muslim....please open your mind, you sound very narrow minded.

stop picking on me !

Here read this

Quran tells us to: "not to make friendship with Jews and Christians" (Q. 5:51), fight them "until they pay the Jizya (a penalty tax for the non-Muslims living under Islamic rules) with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued" (Q. 9:29). "kill the disbelievers wherever we find them" (Q.2:191), "murder them and treat them harshly" (Q. 9:123), "fight and slay the Pagans, seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem" (Q. 9:5).

I am not a narrow minded person, and I think you and have gone off topic..

Needless to say I dont think in the book of beginnings i.e bible or torah does it say with such conviction that you must hate other religions.. Thats just .. well...evil

Quran says that all those who disbelieve in Islam to hell (Q. 5:10), they are najis (filthy, untouchable, impure) (Q. 9:28), and orders us to fight the unbelievers until no other religion except Islam is left (Q.2:193). It prohibits a Muslim to befriend a non-believer even if that non-believer is the father or the brother of that Muslim (Q. 9:23), (Q. 3:28).

It says that the "non-believers will go to hell and will drink boiling water" (Q. 14:17). It asks the Muslims to "slay or crucify or cut the hands and feet of the unbelievers, that they be expelled from the land with disgrace and that they shall have great punishment in the world hereafter" (Q. 5:34). And tells us that "for them (the unbelievers) garments of fire shall be cut and there shall be poured over their heads boiling water whereby whatever is in their bowels and skin shall be dissolved and they will be punished with hooked iron rods" (Q. 22:19-22) and that they not only will have "disgrace in this life, on the Day of Judgment He shall make them taste the Penalty of burning (Fire)" (22:9).

BTW: I can copy and paste more, it gets worse and worse and worse ... well u get the picture!!! But im sure you know all of this, and BTW your right in the fact that it doesnt say 71 VIRGINS , but its VIRGIN(S) so it can be more than one.

Lets just leave it at that we both have a difference of opinion and a conflict of interest! K !

[sassa]

Originally posted by nychunk

But its fine to tell me to Shut the fuck up?

You fucking hypocrite, go to sleep and try feeding ur crazy somewhere else, we're pretty full from ur bullshit here

Have a nice safe nap:D

at least i'm not ignorant, which i have noticed about you and several other people on this board.

[sassa]

Originally posted by rdancer

stop picking on me !

Here read this

Quran tells us to: "not to make friendship with Jews and Christians" (Q. 5:51), fight them "until they pay the Jizya (a penalty tax for the non-Muslims living under Islamic rules) with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued" (Q. 9:29). "kill the disbelievers wherever we find them" (Q.2:191), "murder them and treat them harshly" (Q. 9:123), "fight and slay the Pagans, seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem" (Q. 9:5).

I am not a narrow minded person, and I think you and have gone off topic..

Needless to say I dont think in the book of beginnings i.e bible or torah does it say with such conviction that you must hate other religions.. Thats just .. well...evil

Quran says that all those who disbelieve in Islam to hell (Q. 5:10), they are najis (filthy, untouchable, impure) (Q. 9:28), and orders us to fight the unbelievers until no other religion except Islam is left (Q.2:193). It prohibits a Muslim to befriend a non-believer even if that non-believer is the father or the brother of that Muslim (Q. 9:23), (Q. 3:28).

It says that the "non-believers will go to hell and will drink boiling water" (Q. 14:17). It asks the Muslims to "slay or crucify or cut the hands and feet of the unbelievers, that they be expelled from the land with disgrace and that they shall have great punishment in the world hereafter" (Q. 5:34). And tells us that "for them (the unbelievers) garments of fire shall be cut and there shall be poured over their heads boiling water whereby whatever is in their bowels and skin shall be dissolved and they will be punished with hooked iron rods" (Q. 22:19-22) and that they not only will have "disgrace in this life, on the Day of Judgment He shall make them taste the Penalty of burning (Fire)" (22:9).

BTW: I can copy and paste more, it gets worse and worse and worse ... well u get the picture!!! But im sure you know all of this

do you want me to whip out my torah and show you some disturbing lines as well? i have studied the whole thing inside out for 4 years, fundamentalist orthodox jews believe that if you kill someone who is non-jewish, that is justified in God's eyes because the Jews are the "chosen people" and anyone non-jewish is not considered "human" in God's eyes....I can go on for hours about their wacky beliefs...truth of the matter is, their idea of Islam is very extreme and out there, but you can't say this is the way Islam is applied for the 1.2 BILLION other muslims out there. if you do try to say this, then you are severely limiting yourself intellectually. interesting how some muslim countries don't even want to take part in what is going on and do not support iraq or al-qaeda, yet from the looks of what has been posted here,as well as what is said in mainstream society and the media, people seem to think all muslims share this belief. well, i am muslim and i do not believe in this shit, nor does anyone else i know.

you disappoint me.. can't believe i thought you were a cool person...guess i was wrong.

[rdancer]

! I guess im not cool, Like I said we share a difference of opinions. You have your IDEALs and I have mine, the difference is im not judging you!

[trancerxn112]

Originally posted by sassa

do you want me to whip out my torah and show you some disturbing lines as well? i have studied the whole thing inside out for 4 years, fundamentalist orthodox jews believe that if you kill someone who is non-jewish, that is justified in God's eyes because the Jews are the "chosen people" and anyone non-jewish is not considered "human" in God's eyes....I can go on for hours about their wacky beliefs...truth of the matter is, their idea of Islam is very extreme and out there, but you can't say this is the way Islam is applied for the 1.2 BILLION other muslims out there. if you do try to say this, then you are severely limiting yourself intellectually. interesting how some muslim countries don't even want to take part in what is going on and do not support iraq or al-qaeda, yet from the looks of what has been posted here,as well as what is said in mainstream society and the media, people seem to think all muslims share this belief. well, i am muslim and i do not believe in this shit, nor does anyone else i know.

you disappoint me.. can't believe i thought you were a cool person...guess i was wrong.

what do u do for a living... ur forte is obviously on disagreeing with others but u lack the ability to make up ur own mind. besides of cource studying the bible for 4 straight years locked up in a monastary to become an expert of every possible religion what do u do for fun... communicate with jesus? speak with burning bushes? or should we say that there us only one god, Allah and Sassa is his prophet.

[rdancer]

SASSA MoY HOOY

[acura]

Originally posted by davidstone

you guys take terrorism WAY to seriously. chill.

LOL what a moronic statement.

[girly]

Originally posted by bigpoppanils

however..too few people in this country can see a difference...too many people automatically associate "Arab" with "Terrorist"

and girly...i hope your brother comes back home without injury

thanks you..even if godforbid he doesn't, we are worth it.And he feels the same way, thats why he took the job.

[sassa]

Originally posted by trancerxn112

what do u do for a living... ur forte is obviously on disagreeing with others but u lack the ability to make up ur own mind. besides of cource studying the bible for 4 straight years locked up in a monastary to become an expert of every possible religion what do u do for fun... communicate with jesus? speak with burning bushes? or should we say that there us only one god, Allah and Sassa is his prophet.

i am saddam hussein's private secretary... a part-time monk at a monestary in mongolia... :rolleyes: and a part-time rabbi whenever i can fit in it...

oh,and rdancer, i wasn't judging you, but it really irritates me when people say things and cannot back things up without going on the Internet to do so...

and please do not desecrate the religion this way, i don't know (or care) what religion you follow, but please be respectful. i am no prophet. thank you.

[nycmuzik]

Everyone should just listen to some Coldplay and smoke a cig....I will all be better....

[dialectics]

Originally posted by girly

well then if you don't like it why don't you leave?

That statement goes against everything a democracy stands for. In a true democracy, if you don't like it, change it.

It is the ability to speak out against the government that this country was founded on. Our founding fathers, the geniuses who framed the constitution, purposefully did so in such a way to make sure that no government could ever become so powerul as to act without checks and balances.

the first amendment: we are allowed to speak out against the actions of our government. the right to bear arms was originally intended to ENCOURAGE anti-government militias. this country was founded on the idea that government should be for the people and by the people because that fuckhead king george had other things to say about that.

the only problem is that now THE PEOPLE are performing their check. I am not saying that the camelfuckers should not be eliminated, but answer this question for me: How many of the 9/11 hijackers were Iraqi?

And I for one distrust bush a whole lot more then i'm afraid of sadam. the bush machine is quite smart: its not about oil or terror. this whole pithy war is an excuse for people to turn away from pressing domestic problems, the failing economy, corporate crime, failing healthcare, etc. Whatever happened to campaign finance reform? It doesn't matter because we're at war with terrorists. What happened to the Enron documents? It doesn't matter, we're at war with terrorists. While we're duct taping our safe room, friends of the bushies are raping and pillaging the economy at our expense.

Finally, let's get to the ULTIMATE reason for war in the mechanized age: War exists because it enables people to work, but since the fruits of their labor are all destroyed by war, their quality of life is never improved. They will thus never get comfortable and never get smart. (paraphrased from orwell).

[girly]

]exactly.. change it.. Don't just state a bunch of tidbits of facts from the past.. If you don't like something CHANGE IT.. Like i stated before other people like my brother and our other american women and men are actully doing something about it that they feel is right.. some of these people that posted in this thread want to sit here and talk about how they don't want a war this and that.. But guess what you have a right to say what you want but when you aren't doing anything, then your words mean shit..

[cintron]

"This town needs an enema"

--Jack Nicholson as The Joker

I'd say This WORLD needs an enema.

[msoprano]

Originally posted by girly

]exactly.. change it.. Don't just state a bunch of tidbits of facts from the past.. If you don't like something CHANGE IT.. Like i stated before other people like my brother and our other american women and men are actully doing something about it that they feel is right.. some of these people that posted in this thread want to sit here and talk about how they don't want a war this and that.. But guess what you have a right to say what you want but when you aren't doing anything, then your words mean shit..

so how is protesting a war and speaking out agaisnt the govt not doing anything????

[girly]

Originally posted by msoprano13

so how is protesting a war and speaking out agaisnt the govt not doing anything????

IMO this sums is up pretty good.. And of course i would never be able to put it better myself..

My name is Marty....I feel war is wrong...We need to pull back because we are instigating the Osama's and Saddam's of the world....If left to there own they would surely stop killing innocent people....Its this evil gov't of ours that responsible for all the death and destruction around the world....No I dont have any good solutions to any of these problems but so what....I can state one sided facts and always win in an argument because these flag waving idiots actually sign up to go defend my rights....I'll abuse those rights like a 5 dollar hooker and get the fuck outta here in an instant if I'm ever called upon to do the same....Until then I'll post on the internet about all the evil things this country has ever done.....And dont let anyone ever tell you that the US has done something good...They're probably Republicans who had some involvement in the JFK assasination....My hobbies include flag burning, turning over cars at "peace" rallies, vandalizing stores that represent the capatalist Wall street fat cat, and various other acts of rebellion that will get me in the spotlight.....

My name is Marty

I'm a liberal

I oppose everything (read these lines closely)

I stand for nothing (

[djmikedr]

Originally posted by sassa

are they cockroaches for you to wipe them out....

Yes they are. Every single mommy, daddy and baby roach.

All their life they are taught to hate and despise us in favor a fucking god. They all must go. Kill their soldiers and in 20 years all the babies form new (and more) soldiers.